Rufus B. Burrus Oral History Interview, November 8, 1985

Notice
This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for the Harry S. Truman Library. A draft of this transcript was edited by the interviewee but only minor emendations were made; therefore, the reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written word.

Numbers appearing in square brackets (ex. [45]) within the transcript indicate the pagination in the original, hardcopy version of the oral history interview.

RESTRICTIONS
This oral history transcript may be read, quoted from, cited, and reproduced for purposes of research. It may not be published in full except by permission of the Harry S. Truman Library.

Opened December 1986
Harry S. Truman Library
Independence, Missouri

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JOHNSON: In the first interview we had gotten into the Presidential period. But I do want to back up and ask some questions from an earlier period again, based on some of the statements that were published in articles in the Sunday supplement of the Kansas City Star, an article by Richard Miller, on the Judgeship period of Truman's career. I will start with a trivial question. There is mention of a cousin "Snapper." Do you know who this person is?

BURRUS: That was General Ralph Truman. He was a major general, and 35th Division commander.

JOHNSON: In answer to this question you might refer to a letter that you wrote to the Kansas City Star in June 1984. There was a statement in an article by Richard Miller, published May 6, 1984, stating that Judge Truman appointed two justices of the peace while the other judges were out of the courtroom. I know that you have responded to that in writing. Does that spell out pretty well your answer to that question?

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BURRUS: Yes sir. Mr. Truman couldn't do anything by himself because it was required that they had to have at least two of the three judges for a quorum. The Eastern Judge and the Western Judge would be the other two. So one of them wouldn't be enough. The Clerk of the Court was very careful. Eddie Becker was his name; he was deputy court clerk and each time he had an item to be put in the journal of the court, or the minutes of the court, he wanted something definitive of at least two of the judges who had to approve it. He was very meticulous about that and careful and he never, as I ever knew, ever let anything go through that wasn't with the consent of at least two of them. When Mr. Truman was Presiding Judge and one of the other judges was gone, he had the right to cast his vote, but he'd have to have the record show that the other one either was present and didn't vote, or present and did vote, whatever it was. So he just couldn't have done it by himself, that's all. He never wanted to do anything by himself.

JOHNSON: Mr. Miller refers to Truman as one of the "triumvirate" under Boss Pendergast. Have you ever heard

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that term used before, along with McElroy and Lazia?

BURRUS: No.

JOHNSON: Miller does credit Truman with honest administration of the bond issues. He mentions that "although Truman saved the bond money from Pendergast theft, the boss used Eastern Judge [Robert] Barr to siphon the regular revenues." Were there problems here in connection with Judge Barr? I think Mr. Truman may have been critical, in some of his memos to himself, of Judge Barr.

BURRUS: Have you ever seen those notes that this fellow refers to that Truman wrote?

JOHNSON: Yes, some of them. Mr. Miller also says that "Truman's private admission that he permitted in competent hacks to collect paychecks and purchase goods at excessive prices is in stark contrast to every public statement that he ever made on the topic."

In general terms, would it appear likely that Mr. Truman did have to accept a certain amount of, let's say, incorrect conduct, in order to get bigger things done; in other words, to accept a lesser evil in order to

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prevent a greater evil?

BURRUS: I don't think so. I expect that maybe someplace along the line, maybe either the Eastern or the Western Judge had some particular person that they wanted to have something done for and if the two agreed upon it, they could outvote Mr. Truman, the Presiding Judge. But if anything like that occurred, we wouldn't call it theft, or illegal or anything of that kind. It would be what they had the right to do.

Also, you see, in later times, Barr joined with Spencer Salisbury, Arthur Mesker, and some others that were critical of Truman. As a matter of fact, they didn't support Mr. Truman for the Senate, but they supported another fellow for that office openly.

JOHNSON: Was it [Tuck] Milligan?

BURRUS: Milligan.

JOHNSON: So there was a little friction or possibly even a little bad blood eventually between the two? Between Barr and Truman?

BURRUS: That's right. One of the persons that I'm sure

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influenced Barr and Salisbury and Mesker was Senator Bennett Clark, especially in regard to some monies that were being used to refinance homes and houses and the like. They worked through him and they were trying to repay him I'm sure, even though it had to be something that would be not in accordance with what Mr. Truman would have done, or wanted to do. That would be the only reason I can think of that that would ever happen, if it did ever happen. But it wasn't something that Truman had to do with except that they probably did things on the outside that Truman disagreed with. They were giving their allegiance not to Truman for his nomination but to the other gentleman.

JOHNSON: There's mention, too, about this incident in 1930 when a man appeared at Margaret's school, apparently with the intent to kidnap her. Was that your interpretation, that this might have been an attempt, or probably was an attempt, to kidnap Margaret Truman?

BURRUS: Of course Margaret had been in my sister's class too. At that particular time, the teacher lived across the street from where my father did. Kelley was her name. Madelyn was her first name. She knew the

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family and she knew what might happen. That's what alerted her to find out what was the reason they would send for Margaret. She delayed it, and having done so whoever was there finally left without letting anything more happen. She just explained that to the police officers, and nothing more is known about it.

JOHNSON: They never identified the person apparently that showed up at the school.

BURRUS: No.

JOHNSON: And that was at Bryant School?

BURRUS: Bryant School, yes. My sister was on the staff out there too. Helen was her name.

JOHNSON: Was she unmarried?

BURRUS: Oh yes, she never married. She passed away a few years ago. She was the principal of the school at that time, after she had been a teacher at Bryant School.

JOHNSON: There is also mention of an incident involving Sheriff [Thomas] Bash where he came upon an apparent assassination,

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and he ended up in a gunfight that killed two criminals and captured a third one, [Charles] Gargotta. Then a statement is made that after what seemed to be a very heroic action by the sheriff, Truman cut Bash's budget and he was silent about the crime. He apparently did not publicly congratulate Sheriff Bash. What's your reaction to that?

BURRUS: If anything in his budget was cut, there was some good reason for it, to keep the budget of the sheriff within the confines of the money that would be available and apportioned to him. That would be the only reason Truman would do that. He wouldn't do it for any personal reason such as this author would attribute to him.

JOHNSON: Do you remember Truman ever saying anything about Sheriff Bash or indicating his attitude toward Sheriff Bash? He was a judge before he was a sheriff wasn't he?

BURRUS: Yes, he was a county judge. He was a Rabbit Democrat, the other faction. But he never had any public encounter with him, that I ever knew about, or treated him ignominiously. After all, Bash was another

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public officer and Truman wouldn't have done that either privately or publicly.

JOHNSON: Did he ever tell you privately whether he liked or disliked Mr. Bash?

BURRUS: No. Another thing is that Bash was a confidant of Dr. Johnson who had been an active Democrat in Kansas City. And his brother, they called him "Tiny" [Clark] Johnson, was the court sheriff of the county. So anything that ever happened would have been picked up by Johnson, who was always present when the court was in session. He would be the one who might report such things.

I remember one incident that relates to this. There was a gentleman that had been a contractor who had done some county road work during the time of the "pie crust" roads. He wanted to get a contract on some roads, and he kept insisting on it to Truman. Truman wouldn't encourage him. He told him that he wouldn't give a bid that would be approved, but if he did he would have to do the work that was provided for under the instructions of Stayton and Veatch.

Well, Truman had occasion to want to open a quarry

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at Blue Springs. Those in charge of the roads wanted to open up a crusher, so they could have rock that could be sold from out there to use on the roads, with out having to haul it from Independence or Kansas City. Well, that decision was made, and the same gentleman wanted to make a bid on that contract. He did; he bid it really low. Mr. Truman told Bill Spann, who was a deputy with Stayton and Veatch, and me, "Now, I want you to have a contract and specifications that are proper and right, that he can be held to. I know he isn't going to do what he's supposed to do and he's going to want to have extra money when he shouldn't have it." He said, "Now, I want you to make it so that can't happen." So I helped Spann, and we made the specifications and we had it written out plain and good. It was submitted to him. He signed the bid and the contract to do the job. Well, when he got his first claim in for money upon that job, he certified for solid rock when at best it was only loose rock, and he put loose rock in the record when it wasn't anything except earth or dirt.

Well, when they checked the claim they refused to honor it and sent it back to him, and told him why.

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The gentleman came into the county court one morning early, in Independence. The two judges were there, and Truman was writing his name on various vouchers that had to be ready to be acted on. And he came in and snarled about his not getting paid. He had given evidence as having had something to drink and he wasn't very gracious or circumspect with what he said. Truman said to him--his name was John Pryor--"Now, John, you've stuck your nose in here and I've heard all I want to hear. It's done. Now you get out, and that's all that will happen to you." And he snarled back something to Truman and Truman said, "Tiny, kindly show the gentleman out." Tiny was the sheriff's deputy; he was a big 6'4" or 6'5" fellow and weighed 200 and some odd pounds. He came up behind him, and grabbed his collar with the left hand and his belt with the other hand and pushed him out the door, literally pushed him out. That's how Mr. Truman disposed of him; he said, "Show the gentleman out," and that's what he did.

Afterwards Pryor knew he wasn't going to be able to get what he wanted, so he turned it over to his superintendent. His superintendent was a gentleman,

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And they got together with him and allowed them only what they should have. Pryor never did get over being shoved out of the courtroom; and he never came back either.

JOHNSON: That kind of fits in with the stories we have about how he handled those contracts.

BURRUS: That's right.

JOHNSON: Mr. Miller also implies that Truman was critical of Judge [James] Page for the wrong reasons. He says that Truman tried to sabotage Page's crusade against criminals within the Pendergast machine, although Page himself was a Pendergast appointee. I guess his main charge here is that Truman was publicly silent again, according to Miller; that is, Truman did not come out publicly and support this so-called crusade of Judge Page. Do you recall anything about this "crusade" against some of the Pendergast people?

BURRUS: No, I never did.

JOHNSON: Did you know Judge Page very well? Do you recall anything about his personality?

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BURRUS: Yes, I knew him.

JOHNSON: What kind of a person was he?

BURRUS: Well, he was sort of a narrow-minded fellow. He was not one you could get along with with ease. So I never did try to do anything with him, just did the things that had to be done. I would pass along messages with the things that had to be delivered to him.

Mr. Truman had the right as Presiding Judge, and with the help of other folks on the board of the county that apportioned the money out and made the budget, to budget each county officer. It was up to them to decide how many deputies they might have, but the law also prescribed the dollar amount that could be budgeted for each class of employees, and they couldn't exceed that class for that particular person.

JOHNSON: Apparently it is correct that Mr. Truman would not speak out criticizing Pendergast when something shady was revealed in the press. Do you think there's much substance to this charge that Harry Truman did not criticize Pendergast perhaps when he should have, at

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least not in public, and if he didn't say anything negative about Boss Pendergast in public, can you account for the reasons why he was silent?

BURRUS: I don't think there was any reason for Mr. Truman to make any remarks about what had happened so far as Pendergast was concerned. As far as Truman was concerned, that was something that did not involve the court, so he didn't have any reason to make any statements about it.

Mr. Truman set out in his Memoirs the things he did as county judge and the relationship with Mr. Pendergast and with other folks, for some 20 odd pages. After all, Mr. Truman wrote the Memoirs and he's more capable of saying what happened during his administration. Mr. Miller never talked with me, he never talked with anybody that I know of that had anything to do with Mr. Truman. He just seems to be grabbing something out of a newspaper once in a while, which is out of context probably, without any real support.

JOHNSON: I suppose you did meet Tom Pendergast on occasion. Do you have some recollections of his demeanor, what

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kind of person he seemed to be?

BURRUS: I recollect that I had two occasions to see him personally. One of them was when somebody that was working for the county--not the person himself but one of the members of the family--said, "I wish that you would go to Mr. Pendergast and tell him that you know about so and so who is a Democrat and has always been loyal to Mr. Pendergast's faction."

I said, "Well, I'll be glad to do that if you think it will do any good at all."

One morning I went down to 1908 Main Street and told him. He said, "You tell so and so they don't have to make any apologies to me about that. I know that that fellow was all right and that he never did anything wrong. So you go back and tell them that you delivered the message, and that's how it is."

And I did see him one other time. I think that was outside of his office where he had been in some public place, but I didn't have any words with him. So that's my contact with him.

JOHNSON: So you met him only once in his own office.

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BURRUS: That's right. That's the only time.

JOHNSON: Do you remember anybody else that was there at that time? There were just the two of you?

BURRUS: I went by myself. As a matter of fact, I knew that the time he got there was sometime after 7 or 8 o'clock, and they always said if you want to see him, see him at that time of the morning, because he's got time to see the folks he wants to. If you go later, sometimes he's not there. He did get to his office early, so I was told.

JOHNSON: So you got there kind of early. About what year would that have been do you think?

BURRUS: Oh, I would say that it was probably in the '30s, early '30s, I think.

JOHNSON: Also there's a comment that Truman "gerrymandered" the Fourth District in 1933 to guarantee him an easy if he would have run for Congress in '34. There was a redistricting in that year wasn't there?

BURRUS: Yes. The district increased in population, as

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had Kansas City. This Fourth District was made up of part of Kansas City and part out-state, not only Jackson County but some of the adjoining counties. I wouldn't call it gerrymandering, because after all, that had to be done with the legislature of the state and also with the help of the Federal folks that had to do with the congressional districts. If Mr. Truman had anything to do with that I didn't know it. He may have, because I do know that he at one time said that he would probably fix it up so he could be retired as a legislator from the district. He then says like the gentleman that ran from Texas and became Vice President, John Garner, said, "You get in a position that you don't have to get out and campaign because you've got yourself in a good Democrat area and you could go in and do what you want to do. That would be one that I would like to have, so that I wouldn't have to go out and campaign."

JOHNSON: "Gerrymandering" implies that there are areas identifiable as pro-Truman or at least, I guess, pro Goat faction.

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BURRUS: Pro-Democrats.

JOHNSON: Although the whole area is Democrat.

BURRUS: Well, no, it wasn't either, because there were some Republicans in the area.

JOHNSON: Okay, so this would have meant putting Republicans in another district possibly, is that the idea? Did you have anything to do at all with that redistricting?

BURRUS: No, I didn't have anything to do with it. I knew about it but I didn't have anything to do with it.

JOHNSON: They added another district, is that right?

BURRUS: That's right.

JOHNSON: They added another district, and then had to redraw the lines of existing districts.

BURRUS: That's because the state population had increased and, therefore, they were entitled to one more district to represent the population.

JOHNSON: That was quite an election, the city election in 1934. There were two or three murders and some

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intimidation of voters. There apparently was a faction, more or less called the "uplifters," at least that's the term used in the article. They were the group that was trying to reform or clean up city politics back in '34, and Mr. Miller claims that Harry Truman did not support the "uplifters," so-called. Do you remember that term being used, "uplifters?"

BURRUS: No.

JOHNSON: Or Truman taking any sides in that city election in 1934?

BURRUS: No.

JOHNSON: Johnnie Lazia was murdered wasn't he in that election?

BURRUS: That was something that was clear out of anything that Truman would have any knowledge about, or have anything to do with or have any way to guard against, or be in favor of it or anything else about it. It's just something he would happen to know about when we read it in the paper.

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JOHNSON: Do you remember Harry Truman ever saying anything about that election, that 1934 election which was rather violent?

BURRUS: No. He always abhorred violence but I never heard him say anything that I can remember or had any reason to mention it particularly.

JOHNSON: Now we will go on to some of the questions that come out of your own correspondence; this is the correspondence between 1939 and 1945 that we have in our files. In May 1939 you refer to what you call a "mess" in the county organization. You said, "There is no cooperation in cleaning up the payroll that we should have." This is in a letter to Mr. Truman that you wrote in May 1939. You said, "[Lester] Byam is doing his best to see things go right but he is getting little or no help from the other two judges." And then you almost plead with Mr. Truman to come home to save something "out of the wreck." I suppose this is right in the aftermath of the conviction of Mr. Pendergast, Boss Pendergast.

BURRUS: That's right. Byam was a judge and he had also

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been a county road man under Truman. He was one of Mr. Truman's friends, and so that's what I had mentioned about him.

JOHNSON: Was he one of the more able judges, the most able judge as far as you were concerned, back there in '39?

BURRUS: That's right. That's after Truman was out of office.

JOHNSON: Yes, and after the conviction of Pendergast, which threw the organization into disarray, I suppose. Did Jim Pendergast take over the organization after Tom Pendergast was convicted?

BURRUS: I think it fell to him to do it, and he's probably the one that did it. I never had any reason to be in contact with him, to see what he was doing. But I think that's what generally the folks considered him to be, the one who took over from his Uncle Tom.

JOHNSON: How about Byam? Did he remain in office?

BURRUS: Byam stayed along with us too.

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JOHNSON: Was he a supporter of Truman throughout those years?

BURRUS: That's right.

JOHNSON: Do you recall if Senator Truman was ever able to come back to help get the organization back in shape, or did he take a hands-off kind of attitude?

BURRUS: I think he didn't take any part in it because after all he was busy as a Senator and had plenty to do there. That didn't give him the opportunity to come back here and get into the politics of the factions.

JOHNSON: In spite of your request, he stayed in Washington as far as you recall?

BURRUS: That's right. I just.. wanted him to know about it--just give information to him.

JOHNSON: In 1940, when we have another campaign for nomination and election for the Senate, you apparently were involved in plotting strategy for that campaign.

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This is in April 1940 that you wrote a letter to Mr. Truman, and you refer to the unpopularity of "Lloyd Crow" --apparently that is Lloyd Stark; you referred to a rumor that Truman would withdraw and the "Rabbits and the 15th Street boys will be for [Maurice] Milligan." That was one of the rumors about what might happen. The 15th Street boys . . .

BURRUS: That's Cass Welch's faction. Casimer Welch. He was a justice of the peace and he was a leader in that particular area. He had an office on 15th and I think he lived within that district. At least he had this residence within that district. He may not have lived there all the time.

JOHNSON: This was the pro-Milligan faction?

BURRUS: That's right.

JOHNSON: Were they still referred to as the Rabbits?

BURRUS: They were the Rabbits.

JOHNSON: They still have those two names, the Rabbits and Goats?

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BURRUS: That's right.

JOHNSON: You said that Truman should start "counter propaganda," and then you mention that Bennett Clark encouraged Milligan to enter the race to humble Stark. Quoting from your letter, you said, "After he has seen how little support Stark had, he will either call off Milligan or give you this whole-hearted support. Clark will appease Milligan by getting him onto the Attorney General's staff in Washington."

There was a three-man race going on. There were Milligan, Stark and Truman, and the fact that Milligan and Stark were both in the race did split the opposition to some extent, and did help Truman get nominated. Isn't that the way you see it?

BURRUS: I expect it had some effect on it.

JOHNSON: What do you recall about your part in that 1940 senatorial campaign?

BURRUS: When Mr. Truman came back from the Senate to get into the campaign, I met him with some other folks from up here in Northwest Missouri. It was in the

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summertime in June, when they had a recess. He had his clothes in a suitcase, and he said, "If you folks could take time to get some shirts out of my bag here and see to it we get them laundered, so I can get them within a little while. I would like to have some fresh shirts when I get back." He said, "I've got a suit of clothes I've been wearing, and these need to be pressed and I've got one in that bag that needs to be pressed. If you can find some way that you can do that." He said, "I hope all of you've got money to pay for all of that and also to pay for my lunches and meals and for the gasoline, because I'm just plain out of funds." That's the way he put it, and he was.

All of us did see to it that all those things happened for him, and we made it comfortable for him. He made stops at different places that had been arranged. This fellow Kitchen wrote a letter. Someone had found his name in the files here.

JOHNSON: What's the name?

BURRUS: [William] Kitchen. He was a Democrat and a worker

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for the Democrats, and also a friend of Truman's. He arranged for a lot of these stops way up in Northwest Missouri, for Truman to stop and have visits with the people. Some of them were Postmasters and some of them were in stores and little places along the road. That's what Kitchen had done. I was along with him when that happened. I spent a couple of days, and finally got back. Truman got his clothes taken care of and his laundry taken care of, which was a help to him too. These were personal things for him, that's all.

JOHNSON: But you also apparently gave at least one speech, if not more campaign speeches, for Truman.

BURRUS: That's right.

JOHNSON: Do you have those speeches?

BURRUS: No.

JOHNSON: Were they extemporaneous?

BURRUS: Extemporaneous, that's right.

JOHNSON: Do you know generally what you would have said?

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BURRUS: I asked him one time, "When are you going to say something for yourself?"

He said, "I'm not going to."

I said, "Well, when are you going to let us do it?"

"Not in my presence, you're not going to." He said, "We're talking about what the Democrat Party has stood for, and what Mr. Roosevelt has stood for, and the Democrat program is the thing that we want to stand on."

So when I had an opportunity I did the same thing. There was a Catholic priest up here in Northwest Missouri. Father Wogan was his name. They had a picnic that had been set up by him at various times, and he had all of the various candidates to come in and they'd make a speech.

Well, so I was there I was there in the interest of Mr. Truman and Wogan knew me and he knew what I was there for. He said, "Come on, I'll give you the best place on the program." He said, "You don't have to make any ante for Mr. Truman; you're doing this, and I'm asking you to do it." So that's how I happened to make that speech. Father Wogan asked me to do that, and I did it.

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JOHNSON: Was this in Cameron? Or was this in Agency? Apparently you were in both places. Do you remember where this was, this picnic?

BURRUS: Cameron, I think it was.

JOHNSON: You mention a picnic at Cameron in one of your letters in August 1940.

BURRUS: That's right. They were all close together. Cameron and Agency, both places are in the same general area.

JOHNSON: Right, because you also mention attending a picnic at Agency, Missouri and making remarks on behalf of Truman. Is that where this Father Wogan . . .

BURRUS: I think he had jurisdiction over both of them. When we got to the other place, again he put me on the podium.

JOHNSON: So you gave speeches both in Cameron and at Agency as you recall?

BURRUS: That's right.

JOHNSON: You were followed by a couple of other individuals--

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William Kemp who spoke for Governor Clark, and by Dave Thompson on behalf of Milligan. Did you have any connections with those people at all?

BURRUS: I knew Thompson and Milligan. They were lawyers and Democrats. But they were being supported against Mr. Truman. And Stark was too.

JOHNSON: Bennett Clark apparently was riding the fence. through most of the campaign and then sided with Truman at the last minute. Isn't that the way it went?

BURRUS: I don't think it was at the last minute; I think it was really after the defeat of Milligan and the other folks that he was supporting. Clark really was a friendly person, so far as Truman was concerned personally, but for some reason he had this idea about putting Milligan in.

JOHNSON: Do you have any idea why he promoted, or put Milligan into the race? Do you think it was designed to help Truman by splitting the opposition?

BURRUS: I don't think so. It may have been. I don't think it was.

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JOHNSON: But that's kind of the way it worked.

BURRUS: That's what really happened with it, yes. That's right.

I do know that Mr. Truman had the support of some Democrats that went up through that part of the country. The State chairman and county chairman, Jim Aylward, was among those out campaigning for Truman in Northeastern Missouri. They would stop at the newspapers and enlist their help in favor of Mr. Truman. They would listen to what they had to say, and then meet people and get some publicity for him. They did a pretty good job with it.

Even in the area where Stark lived he lost the election. In later times I was told by Jim Aylward that Senator Clark said to him, "Would you please tell me how it was that you had the folks on your side in the area there where Stark lived and you were able to carry the election against him in that area?" He proceeded to tell the story that they met a newspaper man who was influential in the area and they told him why they were there and wanted to know if he could help the Truman campaign. The newspaperman said, "Well,

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I don't know, but maybe you could help me, and if I get some help maybe I can help you." He said this in a smiling sort of way. Aylward asked him what he wanted. He said, "You know the Governor?" Aylward said that he knew the Governor. "Well, could you use your influence with the Governor to appoint my nephew to be a probate judge up here? There's a vacancy, and I'd like him to have him. If you could get him appointed, I might be able to help."

So they got on the telephone in his presence, got hold of the Governor, and the Governor said, "What's his name?" They told him. He said, "Yes, I'll appoint him." And he did appoint him. So Jim Aylward told Clark how it happened that that turned the tide in favor of Truman, with this fellow and his newspaper doing it.

JOHNSON: You mention in this letter that you saw a Mr. Dryden?

BURRUS: Yes.

JOHNSON: Do you remember his first name?

BURRUS: L.T. Dryden; he was a lawyer here in Independence.

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JOHNSON: You said you saw him on a Sunday morning and he had spoken for Truman at Holt in Clay County, at the carnival and you had spoken for Truman at Weston on Monday evening. You said both at Agency and in Weston, Congressman Dick Duncan introduced you to the people that were supportive of Truman. This information indicates you gave speeches for Truman at Cameron, at Agency, and Weston. Were there any other towns where you gave talks in favor of Truman?

BURRUS: There may have been. I didn't make long talks. I would just say that I represented him and that I wanted the folks to be in favor of him. I would note the things that Mr. Roosevelt had done and that Mr. Truman approved and helped him have those things done. I would say that Truman had helped make the Roosevelt administration one that was worthy of all the Democrats.

JOHNSON: So when you spoke up for Mr. Truman you emphasized the New Deal program, and how Truman helped it along?

BURRUS: That's right.

JOHNSON: Was there much emphasis in those days on what a

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Senator could do for his folks back home in his state, or was there more emphasis on national politics and the national interest?

BURRUS: So far as Mr. Truman was concerned, he would not stress what he particularly did, except to say that he supported the things that Mr. Roosevelt was in favor of, and helped get over his programs.

JOHNSON: How about projects in Missouri? Would you ever emphasize anything that was done, let's say on Federal projects that were done in Missouri, as a result perhaps of the influence of the Senator? That would be kind of a pork-barrel or log-rolling sort of appeal, but did they ever resort to that approach?

BURRUS: Mr. Truman never did; and I say he wouldn't permit those, when he was President, to do anything like that either.

JOHNSON: Were there any particular projects here in Missouri that you think were directly attributable to Senator Truman's influence?

BURRUS: No, I don't. I don't remember anything like that.

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JOHNSON: How about Ft. Leonard Wood? How far back does that go?

BURRUS: I believe it was made a training camp in 1940. I was down there as an officer of the Sixth Division in 1941, in April.

JOHNSON: Do you know if Senator Truman had anything to do with that being set up here in Missouri, that camp, Leonard Wood?

BURRUS: I don't know whether he did or not, but I do know that when I was there I received some letters from him in which he asked me to check on what buildings were being built and how they were being built, and roads, and all that to see if I could see any evidence of any discrepancies. He wanted to know if the contractors had done what they were supposed to have done, and to get him back my summary about it.

JOHNSON: What kind of information did you give him?

BURRUS: I said that I could find out nothing except that they were doing the job, but that they did it rather loosely because they had to do it in a hurry. I

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suggested that he might have somebody go down there to see how the monies were spent, because I never had a chance to do that. But it appeared the job was being done fairly well, and that the post was one that we would be glad to have and use in that particular area.

JOHNSON: Apparently he did get reports about some gouging, some incorrect conduct so to speak, being done on some of the contracts at Ft. Leonard Wood. I think that was entered into the record in the Senate as one of the reasons for a need for a special committee to investigate the defense program.

BURRUS: I just reported to him what I had heard and learned about, without telling it as a fact. I was an officer on the post and I just did it in a casual sort of way without attracting any attention to it.

JOHNSON: He apparently got letters from a number of people regarding Ft. Leonard Wood, and many of them were critical about the way it was being constructed and the amount of monies spent.

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BURRUS: There had been nothing there but great forests and trees and things of that kind. It didn't have any roads, and the new ones they built were not properly paved. Those using the roads had their tires all eaten up on the rocks, and they couldn't get any stamps to get tires which were rationed at that time. That disabled a lot of folks who had to drive those roads.

JOHNSON: Did you meet Governor Stark? Do you have some opinions or impressions of him?

BURRUS: No. I've never met him. I knew what he had done and what had happened to him, and knew that he successfully endeavored to have Mr. Pendergast endorse him when he wanted to run for Governor. Truman supported him in that race. Stark also wanted to be head of the American Legion, and Mr. Truman helped him get that office too.

JOHNSON: Truman didn't appreciate Stark running against him in 1940. Do you recall any conversation you had with Truman about Stark? Do you remember his comments, any comments?

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BURRUS: Well, smilingly he would say, "Lloyd Crow Stark" and emphasize the "Crow," because he was always crowing about himself. "Crow" was his middle name.

JOHNSON: They made him eat crow I suppose after that campaign didn't they?

What happened to Stark after that campaign? Did he just sort of disappear from politics?

BURRUS: He got defeated. I was at the state Democrat convention when he was wanting a prominent place, and the Democrats weren't going to give it to him. After all, he was the Governor and Stark thought that he ought to have it. Well, they just left him sitting on the platform, without anything going on, and any body who wanted to see him could walk up to him. But he never walked out to anybody. A few people did walk up to speak to him. In time the Democrats in control more or less concluded that that wouldn't be a good thing for the Democrats to just completely ignore him and humiliate him. So they finally came up and did put him in some place that would not give any promise about anything, but still not put him in a position of being an ungrateful sort of person that he really

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was.

That's how he happened to stay there. But it was nearly the whole doggone afternoon that he sat there like that. I remember that because I thought he ought to pick himself up when he saw all this happening, and walk off and leave them, rather than be humiliated. But he just sat there, until they finally found a place for him.

JOHNSON: Who do you recall as being perhaps the most important director of the strategy in the 1940 campaign? Wasn't Messall involved in that campaign as one of the organizers?

BURRUS: Yes, and also John Snyder from St. Louis. He became Mr. Truman's friend way back in the '20s. He was a bank examiner and had charge of some broken banks there. He had helped Mr. Truman get some funds channeled into the campaign.

JOHNSON: And Mr. Vaughan. Did you know Harry Vaughan very well?

BURRUS: Yes, knew him, way back when I first was taken by Truman to Ft. Riley, with Snyder and Vaughan.

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JOHNSON: What were your first impressions of Harry Vaughan when you met him at camp?

BURRUS: He was a schoolteacher who taught calisthenics. He did that in camp too. Well, I learned that he was a man who knew his way about both the artillery and the Army, and that Mr. Truman approved of him along with John Snyder.

JOHNSON: The public image of Harry Vaughan was that he was kind of a carouser and he was always a clown and so on. But the facts seem to be somewhat different than that. Apparently he did not drink, or drank very little. As far as his personal habits are concerned, did he seem to be a pretty straight-down-the-middle sort of person to you?

BURRUS: He taught Sunday School. He was active in his church, and active in civic affairs. Mr. Truman knew that. He was always a gentleman. I never knew anyone that if they really told the truth about it ever had any reason to make any remarks about him that would be uncomplimentary. He was always in favor of Mr.

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Truman, that was one thing. He was just really one of Mr. Truman's best rooters, but there wasn't any thing that Vaughan ever did that was intended to reflect against Truman.

JOHNSON: Was he a good story teller? Was that one of the reasons he became an aide in the White House?

BURRUS: Yes. We called him the king's jester, because he would make remarks to help the President get over a serious condition that we might be in. He would help folks become more willing to get together in one way or another.

JOHNSON: He was a person who usually did not take things all that seriously?

BURRUS: That's right.

JOHNSON: And he played a pretty good game of poker?

BURRUS: He did, I guess. I never played with him. I never played poker with him at any time, because I didn't know how in the first place. I didn't want to get into that.

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Some other things about Vaughan. He had been very active at Westminster College in Fulton, and they were looking for somebody to make an address there. The college administrators wanted Vaughan to see if he could find somebody, and so he went to Mr. Truman. Judge [Ernest] Tipton was another one who was active there. He had been a football coach and football referee, Tipton had, and he got to be a judge later. They concluded that they ought to have, if they could, Prime Minister Churchill to make the address at the school. So they prevailed upon Mr. Truman to get word to the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister, so they said, answered back, that he would come and make an address at Westminster, provided President Truman accompanied him there and also presented him to the people. Mr. Truman said that he would be glad to and he did do it. So that's how that happened, and Vaughan was one of the folks that helped promote it, along with Judge Tipton.

JOHNSON: Yes, I know that his involvement in the "Iron Curtain" speech must have been one of the red letter

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days in the career of Harry Vaughan.

BURRUS: That's right. And it showed that he had the confidence of the people in this school too; that's another thing about it. That's a great institution. It was great and still is.

JOHNSON: Before getting back to the Presidency, I have another question or two about the period of 1940-41, in regard to the local organization. When you went into the Army you kind of got away from that too, I suppose, away from local politics?

BURRUS: I didn't have time, or the chance to do it.

JOHNSON: In January 1941, you wrote a letter to Senator Truman...

BURRUS: That was before I was called to duty in April.

JOHNSON: You mentioned the question of who should give Les advice, Les being Lester...

BURRUS: Byam.

JOHNSON: Okay, that is Byam. And you said that Roger

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was willing and able to do so, but Les seemed to be "amenable to Jim," that is Jim Pendergast no doubt. You said Jim had different views, and the question was whether Les would get and follow the advice of Roger, or would he get and follow the advice of Jim. Does "Roger" refer to Roger Sermon?

BURRUS: Yes.

JOHNSON: I guess, again, you thought maybe Truman could crack the whip there or something.

BURRUS: Or make a choice between them, so we'd know.

JOHNSON: Do you recall just who Byam followed, whose advice he eventually did follow? Was it Pendergast or Sermon?

BURRUS: I think he followed Jim's advice more than he did anybody else, because Sermon was more interested in elevating himself than anything else.

JOHNSON: Was Roger Sermon pretty important in local politics at that time?

BURRUS: Yes. He had been in the Rabbit faction to start

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with, but when Truman got into it he switched over to Truman's leadership and so that's how that happened. But in time Roger wanted to make himself the top man, and not take second place.

JOHNSON: He wanted to take over the organization after Boss Pendergast...

BURRUS: In Eastern Jackson County, not from Pendergast, but take over from the folks that happened to be leaders here in Eastern Jackson County. Independence was the predominant place for the leaders of Eastern Jackson County.

JOHNSON: Did he ever become a judge in the County Court?

BURRUS: No. He just was Mayor.

JOHNSON: Do you remember the year he became Mayor?

BURRUS: No, he was still Mayor though, after I came back from overseas in 1945. He lived across the street from me and I never had any particularly close relationship with him when he was Mayor and his faction, because I was with Truman's folks. I didn't always think that

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Roger Sermon was doing things that Truman would want to have done, so I would just stay clear of him. When I came back after being gone for five years, he lived across the street and he never came across the street to say hello to me, or say he was glad to see me, or greet me in any other way. Of course, I didn't mind, except that it was a little bit unusual for a fellow to get the cold shoulder. That's what he did, and therefore I had no reason to do anything to favor Roger Sermon.

Roger Sermon ran for Governor too, you know. He was defeated, and he thought that he didn't get as much support from Mr. Truman as he should have had. Mr. Truman told him, "Well, you didn't take the support that I told you to go get. I told you to go out to the county organizations to get them to be for you, but you went out to the city organizations and they're always in conflict with the county. And they didn't have enough votes, and you got the short end of the stick because of it, that's all."

JOHNSON: That was when Mr. Truman was President?

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BURRUS: That's right.

JOHNSON: Before he became Mayor, what role did he have in county politics?

BURRUS: He was a City Councilman and was active in city affairs.

JOHNSON: Had they been friends --Truman and Sermon?

BURRUS: Personal friends, because they had been in the Army together, He was a captain of a battery and Truman was another captain of another battery in the 129^th Field Artillery.

JOHNSON; After he lost the race for Governor, did he kind of drop out of politics?

BURRUS: Well, he did not drop out, but he didn't have the clout that he had had before.

JOHNSON: He didn't take a Federal job?

BURRUS: He wanted to, but didn't get one.

JOHNSON: Now we get up to the Presidency of President

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Harry Truman again. I think one of the last episodes that was mentioned in the previous interview was your visit with Harry Truman in the White House. Your first visit was around memorial Day 1945. We did discuss a little bit the connections and the relationships that you had with Truman while he was President but we had just gotten into it. How would you characterize your relationship with Mr. Truman while he was President? Let's begin with the period after your first visit to the White House.

BURRUS: I had some leave time that I had accumulated and I didn't go back really to practice law until the fall of 1945 because I was back with Mrs. Burrus and my son. We also had folks in the Washington area --Annapolis, Maryland --who had a place on the bay that was very comfortable for us. That's where we spent most of the summer.

When I came back, of course, I had a law practice to pick up on. I began to do that. I also had represented the County Court in a lot of matters that I had to forego and leave at the time I left. When I came back home, a lot of those things were still hanging over, especially some that had to do with the State

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Highway Department. So I got back on those cases; they asked me to help with some of the cases that I had worked on before I left, and which were still on the docket and had to be disposed of. Along with that, I got in touch with Vivian; he was head of the real activities for Harry in this general area. He was head of the FHA (Federal Housing administration) too in this area.

In one episode involving Vivian and me, there was a gentleman who had been chairman of the local Democrat party committee and he wanted to be named as a judge to the Federal Court. But he had been doing some things that came to Vivian's attention and mine, that if he had been appointed by Truman, and these came to light, it would have stained the reputation of Mr. Truman. I helped put a stop to that, and another lawyer from Kansas was appointed judge.

JOHNSON: Who was the one that was appointed?

BURRUS: Delmas Hill; his nickname was "Buxx" Hill. He has been here at the Library quite often; he was a friend of Truman's for a long time.

I also came to be appointed as counsel for the

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Reconstruction Finance Corporation.

JOHNSON: For this area, or district?

BURRUS: This district, that's right.

We had funds that had to be loaned. Some people incurred losses by reason of floods on the Missouri River and the Kaw River, and all the borrowers had to do was to show they had a loss and that they were eligible to get loans. My job was to see that those things were legally taken care of. Also, as best we could, we were to turn those down that we didn't think were eligible --if we had any discretion about it. We did a good job in loaning out the money. We never had a single failure of a title, and the only foreclosures, I think, were two or three, where the borrowers were a man and a wife who got a divorce and they couldn't get things split up, and the RFC had to dispose of it. I believe, too, there was a case where some body died and they had to do the same thing. But

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the RFC never lost any money from any of them.

JOHNSON: What year did you become counsel for the RFC?

BURRUS: About '46. I was in six or seven years. When Eisenhower came in, I got out.

JOHNSON: Were you deputy counsel for the County Court as well?

BURRUS: Oh, no. I represented the State Highway Department; I didn't represent the County Court at all.

JOHNSON: You were assistant counselor for the County Court in 1927 to...

BURRUS:1941 when I went to duty.

JOHNSON: Did you take that position again when you came back?

BURRUS: No.

JOHNSON: So you were carrying on a private practice, and you're also counsel to the RFC from about 1946 to '53. Did you visit Washington again, visit the White House?

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BURRUS: I visited Washington two or three times, yes.

JOHNSON: You visited Mr. Truman in the White House?

BURRUS: No, he was in Blair House.

JOHNSON: Did you go over to the oval office?

BURRUS: Yes.

JOHNSON: Do you recall your experience there in Blair House and the Oval Office? This is after the first visit in May of '45.

BURRUS: One time I went back was when Mr. Truman came in by airplane in June 1950 and my son and I met him at the airport. I have described that, where he had to go back to Washington early because of the invasion of South Korea.

I also told you about the other trip where I met Mr. Deramus, head of the Kansas City Southern Railroad, and passed on a message from him to President Truman.

JOHNSON: Did any other people try to use your association for particular advantage? You were not a lobbyist, were you?

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BURRUS: If anybody wanted me to, they never came to me about it, because they knew that I wouldn't do it anyhow.

JOHNSON: You mentioned staying overnight at the Blair House in 1950. What room did you use?

BURRUS: One of the upstairs bedrooms. Fred Wallace, the President's brother-in-law, was with us on the plane and he also was there. They sent supper up to us upstairs on the third floor.

JOHNSON: Third floor bedroom.

BURRUS: I guess it was third, an upper floor. I don't know which room it was.

JOHNSON: Do you remember the White House piano there in the study? Did you get into the study there at the Blair House?

BURRUS: I don't remember the piano.

As I mentioned earlier, I was in Washington for a Reserve Officers convention.

JOHNSON: What hotel were you staying in, do you remember,

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after that first night in Blair House?

BURRUS: The Mayflower. I was there when Truman made his address to the Reserve Officers about the Korean affair. That was also the visit where I overheard him talking to Averell Harriman on the phone, when I was in the swimming pool.

JOHNSON: Did Harriman have a photographic memory? Were you impressed with his memory?

BURRUS: He did. He remembered it with exactness.

JOHNSON: Is that where your swimming habit started or did it start before that? I understand that you take a swim almost daily, even now.

BURRUS: I do today. Not quite that often, though.

JOHNSON: There aren't too many people who got to swim in the White House swimming pool, however. Do you remember Ted Sanders? He helped organize the campaign in Cameron back in '34, and he was a close friend of Fred Canfil.

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BURRUS: I remember Fred Canfil, but I don't remember Ted Sanders.

JOHNSON: There is one thing that comes to mind in that connection. We have Ted Sanders' recollection in talking to Mr. Truman and Fred Canfil, just the three of them, in Kansas City before the 1944 convention in which Truman said he was going to be nominated for the Vice Presidency. He said Robert Hannegan told him that. That came as a surprise to me, in that most of the information we have suggests that Truman went to Chicago without any plan or hope of becoming Vice President. Did he ever talk to you about how he came to be nominated?

BURRUS: Yes. He said that he had agreed to nominate somebody else, Jimmy Byrnes, but he learned after he had made his commitment to do that, that Mr. Roosevelt decided he wanted to have him as the Vice President. He said he agreed to nominate Jimmy Byrnes because he had great respect for him. Later on, of course, when he was Secretary

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of State, Byrnes overstepped his bounds and President Truman removed him.

JOHNSON: Did he ever talk to you about Henry Wallace?

BURRUS: No. Except that he did say that Mr. Roosevelt had decreed that he didn't want Mr. Wallace as Vice Presidential nominee for a second term.

JOHNSON: Any other incidents in Washington that you can remember?

BURRUS: I remember him once telling me, "I'm going to make an address on the radio this evening. You and Mrs. Burrus are here. Why don't you come over and listen to it? It won't be televised, just be on radio."

I said, "Fine."

So I said I'd bring her and I did, and we went over and came into the room where he had everything all set up. He was making an address really to the Russians in which he wanted them to know the fact that he wanted them to have peace with us, and that we would

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also keep our troops in balance with theirs. He made his address and after he got finished, and was cut off, he said, "Well, I made that. You might just as well talk to the wind; they won't do anything with it and won't pay any attention to it, but I want it to be on the record that I made this address, made this attempt to have them to conciliate themselves with our views." So that was that.

JOHNSON: When was that?

BURRUS: I'm not sure. I believe it was after the Korean war started. Mrs. Burrus and I were the only two persons besides the people doing the work.

JOHNSON: Was that sort of like a Fireside Chat?

BURRUS: Well, it wasn't in the Oval Office. It was in a special part that they had.

JOHNSON: Was it in the living quarters, in the study?

BURRUS: It was in one of the White House offices. It was one of those side rooms off of there.

JOHNSON: Did you ever get into the living quarters of the

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White House?

BURRUS: No.

JOHNSON: I notice that you were very much involved with the Reserve Officers Association.

BURRUS: I was commander of the Kansas City chapter; we met at Richards Gebaur [Air Force Base]. I was a delegate to the national conference, representing Missouri I knew a lot of the folks there, and we had people we wanted to have put in the various office. I could have some of my friends here in Missouri do what they wanted to have done and get things done, that were helpful to Mr. Truman.

JOHNSON: Truman addressed them in June 1950 in Washington which we've talked about. Do you recall him ever giving any other address or speech to the ROA?

BURRUS: No, I don't.

JOHNSON: You mentioned meeting out at Richards Gebaur.

BURRUS: The Reserve officers did. That's the Kansas City chapter that Mr. Truman organized in 1922. In 1926

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and ‘27 when I got in with Mr. Truman in the military, that's where I met with them and got to be a member of that Reserve officers unit. Later on they made me commander of the Kansas City chapter. On one occasion, after Mr. Truman had left the Presidency, we had the Judge Advocate Generals of the various areas of the nation meeting out there. We had quite a few folks present. Besides Mr. Truman, we had as a guest, Tom Clark, the United States Supreme Court justice.

So they sat at the head table, and I was there in the group. There must have been six or seven hundred in the audience. Mr. Truman sat up there and some of those folks were coming up with their programs and wanting Mr. Truman to autograph them, and they also wanted Clark to autograph them. Well, Mr. Truman saw that wasn't right, and I did too. I said, "I want to make an announcement about stopping it." He said, "Just leave it to me; let me do it." He got up and said, "Now, I want to have dinner this evening; I don't want to be interrupted. Justice Clark and I want to dine leisurely. So if you'll just be good enough to get your programs together and give them

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to Colonel Burrus and Colonel Vaughan, they'll assemble them and then I'll take them to my office and I'll sign them and send them back to you. You put your addresses on there so I'll know where to send them." Sure enough, that stopped it. Then I began to get them; there must have been five or six hundred of them. We had to have some special envelopes made for them. Well, he sent it to them all, and that's how he did it. Tom Clark was there too, and both of them made some remarks to the officers.

JOHNSON: Did Mr. Truman ever talk to you about Tom Clark, or tell you his impressions of Tom Clark?

BURRUS: It was always the most friendly relations you could have. When this fellow Merle Miller quoted Truman as saying the Clark appointment was the biggest mistake. he ever made, that just wasn't true.

JOHNSON: We've been trying to figure that out too.

BURRUS: Merle Miller doesn't have anything except what he said Mr. Truman told him, and Mr. Truman, being dead, wasn't able to deny them. I prepared some things

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for a file and wanted Mr. Clark to let me publish them. "Well," he said, "let's don't do that." He said, "The more you pick up something that's got stinking dirty stuff on it, the more stink you get on you." I said, "All right," and we didn't do it.

JOHNSON: There is a theory about that. You know, after Mr. Truman left office he was charged by Attorney General Brownell, of the Eisenhower administration, of allowing a Communist, Harry Dexter White, to be hired by the Federal Government. Harry Dexter White was accused of being Communist, and they accused Truman of knowing about it and still hiring him. White had died in the meantime.

Well, our Library has a file of papers of the Solicitor General, Philip Perlman, that indicate that Mr. Truman wanted Mr. Clark, who now was a member of the Supreme Court, to comment about his role in hiring Harry Dexter White when he was Attorney General. Apparently because he was on the Supreme Court at this point, Justice Clark felt that he should not comment about the Harry Dexter White case, or the controversy, even though he had been the one who recommended or approved

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his hiring. Apparently, Clark's refusal to get involved bothered Mr. Truman because he was under all of this pressure of having to defend the hiring of White. It also appeared, to Truman, to be a political thing in which the new administration was trying to tarnish his reputation. Justice Clark would not comment about it, and this irritated Mr. Truman, it seems. Have you ever heard anything about that theory?

BURRUS: As far as I was ever able to observe, Mr. Truman had no intentions for anything except the kindliest and friendliest relations with Tom Clark and Tom Clark with him. And the wives had the same kind of relationship.

JOHNSON: Yes, of course, the Miller you're talking about is the one that wrote Plain Speaking. Did Merle Miller ever talk to you?

BURRUS: He quoted me, but he never talked to me.

JOHNSON: He quoted you without talking to you?

BURRUS: I guess I had given an interview to somebody,

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and that fell into his hands in some fashion, he referred to me as "Luther Burrus" in his work. That again demonstrates that he didn't understand something on the tapes. When I saw it in print I got a copy of it, and I didn't like it and I knew he was going to be out at the Mall writing autographs. I made a point of going out to see him. I went out and got in line, and I had my name written down and I said, "I just want to tell you you made a hell of a mistake when you quoted me as being 'Luther' Burrus. I'm Rufus Burrus, but you never saw me and never talked to me until I am talking with you now. You just got hold of some documents or some tapes that you have used, and you haven't quoted me correctly about them either, but I want you to put your name on this thing."

He said, "Well, I'm going to publish some corrections."

I said, "Don't worry about that; you just do as you please about that. Don't bother me about that. I just want you to sign this and date it today." He did, and I said, "I'd like to have a chance to have more of a visit with you. What about tomorrow? Can I see you?"

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"Oh, no, I'll have to be leaving early in the morning."

I said, "That's all right; if you don't have any time, that's okay."

And that's when I left him. But that's the only time I ever had a chance to see him, and I didn't talk with him except then. He had those tapes that several of us had given out for Mr. Truman's use, and he got hold of them, somehow, and how I don't know.

JOHNSON: Who had those tapes?

BURRUS: I think it was this fellow, [David] Susskind.

JOHNSON: Oh, yes, David Susskind.

BURRUS: I think those were the ones that he had gotten.

JOHNSON: Oh, I see. Were you interviewed by David Susskind?

BURRUS: I was interviewed by someone representing him. It wasn't Susskind himself.

JOHNSON: They were being done for a TV series, Decision:

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The Conflicts of Harry S. Truman. Did you appear in any of those segments? Did they quote you in the finished version?

BURRUS: No, I don't think they did. But I might have been on radio. I happened to be in San Francisco and someone had the radio on and said to me, "We heard you on the radio this morning." What it was I don't know. It could have been that one, I suppose.

JOHNSON: Was this just a tape recording or were they doing a movie?

BURRUS: No, it was a tape recording.

JOHNSON: It is well known that Miller's account of Truman's meeting with MacArthur at Wake Island in October 1950 is at odds with the Memoirs and with other documents as to what happened. Did you ever talk to Mr. Truman about MacArthur?

BURRUS: Yes. He said MacArthur was giving out information and having interviews which were not in accordance with the policies from Washington. He had General Marshall and other folks look into it. Marshall said the President

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should have fired MacArthur two years ago. Truman believed that every effort should be made not to make a martyr out of MacArthur.

JOHNSON: Did you ever see or meet General Marshall?

BURRUS: No, I never had occasion to.

JOHNSON: Many sources have quoted President Truman as praising him as one of the greatest Americans ever, greatest military leader we've had.

BURRUS: That's right.

JOHNSON: Did you ever meet Eisenhower?

BURRUS: I was in the presence of General Eisenhower when he was here at the Library. After Mr. Truman left the Presidency he never had a line from Eisenhower directly, never had anything at all directly to do with him. In Kansas City there was a People to People program and after Eisenhower left office he was designated to head that program. Joyce Hall of the Hallmark Corporation was behind that move.

Well, Joyce Hall and Charlie Stevenson wanted Mr.

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Truman to meet with General Eisenhower before he became the People to People head. So they came out here to the Library to see Mr. Truman. I happened to come in as they were leaving. Charlie Stevenson saw me and said, "Rufe, I want to see you in the next day or two."

I said, "That's fine." He didn't say what. A couple of days later he said, "I want you to meet me over at Joyce Hall's office."

I said, "Where's that?"

He said, "That's up in the big building there, at the Hallmark Card place."

"Oh," I said, "all right; I'll find it."

So I went over and met them. Hall said, "You know, we're going to have General Eisenhower to be the head of the People to People program, and that means we need all of us to get together." He said, "Former Presidents like Mr. Truman and the General ought to have an arrangement to speak with each other."

I said, "Yes, that's right. You remember so far as Mr. Truman is concerned, he was never afforded any opportunity to have any discussion with the General.

[202]

The General knew where Truman was, and Mr. Truman tried to speak to him two or three times when he was in Kansas City. But each time he was advised that he had his time all taken up and wouldn't be able to see him to talk with him, to make an appointment for him. Well, he came to the conclusion after a couple of times that he just wasn't going to make any more effort to do it."

I was asked, "What do you suggest?" To the idea of a breakfast for them, or a dinner for them, I said "Mr. Truman won't do that I'm sure." I said, "I suggest that the General come and call on Mr. Truman, which he should do at the Library. He's going to be here in the city, I understand from you."

Mr. Hall said, "Yes, we'll see."

They never did tell me what was finally decided, but we began hearing through Senator [Harry] Darby from Kansas that the General was going to be here and that he was going to come calling on Mr. Truman. He got word to Tom Evans on that, and Tom Evans called me and said, "Tell Mr. Truman." I replied, "All right." So that's how we learned about it, in that fashion.

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JOHNSON: You got that thing started.

BURRUS: Yes. So when I talked to Mr. Truman about it, he said, "Now you be here tomorrow morning, when this is coming off. You put your uniform on too."

I said, "Yes sir." He said, "Be here at 8 o'clock because we'll have a lot of newspaper people and other folks setting up, and I want you to help me keep them back because I'm going to wait for Mr. Eisenhower to come here to my office. He's calling on me. My office is back behind that front door and that's where he's going to come see me. That's where I'm going to be."

I said, "All right."

He said, "They want me, I expect, to come out to the car and meet him and I'm not coming to the car and meet him. I want you to tell them that."

Well, when I got here that morning, there was a lot of folks around and they were putting up the wires and getting things all strung up. Among them was Roy Roberts of all folks, because he never got up before noon ordinarily and he was there then. He said, "Well, now we ought to have everything arranged so that when the General comes, Mr. Truman comes out to the car and meets him."

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I said, "No sir, Mr. Roberts, we're not going to do that. Mr. Truman doesn't want to do that. The General is calling on him. His part of the Library is over here at this spot and that's where he's going to meet him; that's where he's going to call on him. That's it." He kept on. And I said, "And further than that, Mr. Roberts, I won't have any more conversation with you. I want you to stay back with all the rest of your lackey boys and don't come barging in here about that." I knew him well enough that you couldn't offend him. So he finally moved out. As time went on we began to hear on the radio that the plane had landed and Eisenhower was on his way. Finally, he came up and Truman said for me to go out to the car and meet the General and escort him in.

I went out to the car. He had a hat that was in his hand, and I said, "I'll take care of your hat, sir."

He said, "Well, don't lose it."

I said, "That's a very good hat. I can feel and tell that, and let me assure you I'll personally see that you get your hat back all right. I know what it

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means to take care of hats." I said, "Mr. Truman's waiting. We didn't know you were coming for sure until we heard it on the radio in the last little while that you were on the way." He looked at me kind of strange. I said, "That's right."

Well, I took him in the door; then I stepped back, and Truman stepped toward the door and the General came through. Mr. Truman greeted him in a very friendly sort of a way. After having a few words with him, he turned and said, "I want you to know my friend Colonel Burrus." It just happened that some newspaper fellow was present and he saw Mr. Truman saying that to the General, and so the General turned to me and we shook hands right in the presence of Truman. That's the first time the two were pictured together in the Library. That's in the file here too. So that's what was happening.

I left him there in his office. Truman had said, "I want to have some time with him. And when he gets ready to leave that's all right, I'll probably get up and go with him."

Well, he did. In time they started out toward

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the museum. [Philip] Brooks was Library Director at the time and he went along. Mr. Truman started to show the General some of the things. They came to the Oval Room. Mr. Truman's portrait was on the left side, and the General's was on the right side of the entry. The General looked up, and Mr. Truman said, "You might recognize that portrait." He said, "That's the one that was given to us by Harry Darby. It's been reported that Harry paid $5,000 for it and it's a good portrait." The General said, "But you got it on the preferred side."

Truman said, "Yes sir, General, and I had it put there."

Well, the General got red in the face when Mr. Truman told him that. I didn't realize that when the General got into the White House he took all of the things that had anything to do with Truman and the Democrats, and put them into storage. That was what Truman was demonstrating to him, sort of rubbing his nose into it.

JOHNSON: You say he called that "preferred position,"

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where Eisenhower's portrait was?

BURRUS: That was changed back, and Mr. Truman's portrait is there now. But that time it was the other way around, you see.

JOHNSON: Do you think that embarrassed Eisenhower, to be treated that nicely?

BURRUS: That's right.

Then when Mr. Truman took him out, he pointed to a copy of General Eisenhower's memoirs that had been autographed by the General to Mr. Truman. He had it opened to where it would show the inscription. Mr. Truman said, "There is somebody's handwriting over there that you might recognize." The General went over and looked at it and read it, including the laudatory comments it included about President Truman. He got red in the face again. Well, that's what happened there.

In some places of the museum, Mr. Truman asked me to stay with the General and represent him. The General singled me out two or three times and explained

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to me how glad he was that he came to see the Library and how glad he was to meet Mr. Truman, and how good it was to be with him. He told me he wished he had seen the Library earlier. He said he would have made some changes in his own Library, because he liked the arrangement better here.

JOHNSON: So they started patching their differences up then?

BURRUS: That's right. From then on the relationship warmed up.

Soon after that occasion, the Speaker of the House, Sam Rayburn died. The funeral was in Texas. Mr. Truman, the General, and President Kennedy met at his funeral-along with Vice President Johnson.

Mr. Truman said to me, "You know, having met as we did at the Library before that, it made it less awkward to meet at the funeral service." He said, "I'm glad we had a chance to do that." He said that the General also expressed his pleasure at the chance to meet at the Library.

JOHNSON: That's quite a picture, you know, two former

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Presidents, an existing President and a future President all there together.

One of the things that really bothered Mr. Truman was when General Eisenhower refused to compliment General Marshall on this trip to Wisconsin in 1952 in order to placate McCarthyites, McCarthy supporters. Did he ever talk to you about McCarthy or say anything about his opinions of Joe McCarthy?

BURRUS: He just was a fellow that didn't know really what he was doing, and he just went off on a tangent against everybody else. Mr. Truman said not to pay any attention to him, just let him go.

JOHNSON: Did he ever say anything about that episode where Eisenhower did delete this reference, this complimentary reference to Marshall?

BURRUS: No. He did say that he was glad that he had a chance to renew his acquaintance and relationship with the General.

Later on there was an occasion where Joyce Hall hosted a dinner over there at Hallmark, and I was invited to take Mr. Truman. Both he and Mrs. Truman were there, along

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with Mrs. Burrus and me. I went as his aide. They had a very beautiful dinner set up for us and the Eisenhowers. Mrs. Eisenhower had had a tooth extracted and she had been in some pain beforehand, but she was there to participate in it. Mrs. Truman and all of us got on just fine. It was a rare opportunity for Mrs. Truman and Mrs. Eisenhower to socialize.

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