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JOHNSON: Perhaps just a little more personal information, Dr. Steelman. I understand that you and your first wife adopted a daughter.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Would you give me her name?

STEELMAN: Her name is Doris, and we adopted her. She made my wife very happy.

JOHNSON: She married a Mr. Frakes.

STEELMAN: Yes, Al Frakes.

JOHNSON: In your papers there is an interview that he apparently did with you, and then your granddaughter transcribed it on paper. Could you give me the year that your first wife died?

STEELMAN: No, I don't remember.

JOHNSON: The date of your marriage.

E. STEELMAN: The date of our marriage was July 14th, 1965.

JOHNSON: On July 14th, 1965, you married Ellen Brown.

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E. STEELMAN: Ellen Brown Steelman. Ellen Brown Hart, because that is my son by my former marriage. Ellen Brown Hart.

JOHNSON: And of course, Robert Hart is here.

E. STEELMAN: And I still sign checks Ellen Brown Hart. I forget.

JOHNSON: Do you have any brothers or sisters?

HART: No, I'm an only child.

JOHNSON: All right. There are a couple of things about Key West again. We're back to Key West and I think we'll start out again with a couple of anecdotes, a couple of stories. One of those had to do with the prunes that were served to Admiral -- who was the Admiral?

E. STEELMAN: Leahy. It was Leahy.

JOHNSON: William Leahy.

STEELMAN: We were at breakfast and Admiral Leahy didn't like it, that they served us too big a dish of prunes, so Leahy gave the order and said, "Three prunes." So the boy brought him three prunes and the boy started to walk away and Leahy said, "Come back here." Truman

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said, "Don't you say a word to that boy; I heard you tell him three, you eat them."

JOHNSON: So Truman used his rank as commander-in-chief to tell Admiral Leahy that he had ordered these three prunes and not to criticize the steward, or the mess boy.

STEELMAN: That's right, and you eat them.

E. STEELMAN: The waiter.

JOHNSON: Yes, the waiter, for giving him what he asked for.

STEELMAN: I told you another thing that I always think of in connection with Key West, and that was the coconut falling and hitting the bench. Truman and I were sitting out and talking about a press conference we were going to have; a coconut fell and hit right beside Truman and sounded like a cannon going off. The Secret Service got all excited and said, "Mr. President, you can't sit here anymore." He said, "What did you say?" "You can't sit here anymore, it's dangerous." And Truman said, "Let's see now, what are your duties?" And the Secret Service said, "It's to protect the President, and that's why you can't." Truman said, "Well, now suppose you do your duties and I sit where I

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please."

So, as I say, the next morning at breakfast we saw little Filipino sailors off of Truman's yacht, crawling up and looking for any coconut that might fall that day.

JOHNSON: Was that on the grounds of the Little White House?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Was that the palm tree that's to the north? Do you know if that was on the north side of the grounds?

STEELMAN: I think so. I think it was.

JOHNSON: There was a palm tree, and I think perhaps a bench near there. There's another palm tree in its place now.

STEELMAN: That's where we were sitting.

JOHNSON: It's on the north side.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Then I think there was an incident, an anecdote, involving the White House limousines with General Motors and Ford. Someone had asked General Motors to supply a Presidential car, or cars.

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STEELMAN: I think we used to have some General Motors limousines. We were flying back from Key West and we heard on the air that Charlie Wilson, the head of General Motors, introduce Tom Dewey, and he said some great things about him. So, Truman said, "When we get back to the White House, you see that there's nothing belonging to General Motors on the White House property."

JOHNSON: Oh, you think that happened on a plane, talking to Truman?

STEELMAN: Yes. And so when we got back I called up the White House garage and said, "See that there's nothing belonging to General Motors." They said, "We don't see how we can do that." I said, "Well, I don't know how you're going to do it either, but do it, and call me." And so I hung up on them.

JOHNSON: Did it also have something to do with the fact that they felt Truman was going to be defeated in the 1948 election? Did they seem to believe that Truman wouldn't be elected in 1948?

STEELMAN: Yes, they were all for Dewey.

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JOHNSON: We'll get back to that, but I think you were saying earlier that when the White House asked for a car from General Motors that they declined. Did they decline to give it, because they said that he wasn't going to be elected in 1948?

E. STEELMAN: If you want me to, I'll tell you how Dr. Steelman told me this story, and he's told it to many friends of ours.

He landed in the airport in Miami and President Truman drove up in a Lincoln Continental convertible, and John got off the plane. He approached the President, and the President said, "John, I might not be the best chauffeur you could have, but I'm the most expensive one." John asked him how come he had a Lincoln. And he said that they approached the dealer -- Cadillac dealer in Miami by the Secret Service or whoever came down -- and that the dealer said, "He's not going to be elected; we're not going to furnish you any more cars for Truman." So then I guess that's when President Truman told them to get Lincolns in the garage. Now, that's as far as I know, and that's exactly the way the story was told to me.

STEELMAN: I remember Henry Ford coming to see me at the

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White House once, and he said, "How do you folks like these cars?" They were the Cosmopolitan; that was the name of the car." I said, "We like them." He said, "I'm glad you like them; they cost me $40,000 a piece." And now I understand, these special cars made for the White House cost $200,000.

JOHNSON: No doubt.

Was this Henry Ford senior or Henry Ford II.

STEELMAN: It was the second I guess.

JOHNSON: Henry Ford II, whom you met at the White House.

STEELMAN: Yes, he came to see me.

E. STEELMAN: Did you know that the Truman Library has one of the Truman Lincolns? They've had it for years.

JOHNSON: How did you get hold of one of the Lincoln White House cars? Did you have one?

E. STEELMAN: You had it for years, Daddy.

STEELMAN: Yes, I had one. I had it for years, yes.

JOHNSON: Do you remember about when you got that car? You bought one, you purchased one, right?

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HART: The one that I fixed up.

E. STEELMAN: He didn't purchase it, it was given to him I think.

JOHNSON: It was given to him?

E. STEELMAN: Somebody in Washington had it, and gave it to him.

JOHNSON: Oh, Milton Kronheim.

E. STEELMAN: Yes, that's who it was.

JOHNSON: He had this car, and it had been used as a White House limousine.

HART: Stored in the garage.

E. STEELMAN: And he thought John should have it.

JOHNSON: Do you remember Milton Kronheim?

STEELMAN: No, I don't offhand; the name sounds familiar but I can't place him.

JOHNSON: Yes, I've come across his name a number of times.

HART: A liquor dealer in Washington.

E. STEELMAN: Yes, he's a big liquor dealer in Washington.

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JOHNSON: But he gave you one of the White House Lincoln automobiles.

E. STEELMAN: And then John loaned it to a church near us down on Gulf Shore Boulevard. Robert drove it down here and the minister approached John. He said, "We're having a carnival, and we'd like to borrow this Lincoln. We understand it's very famous." So, John loaned them the Lincoln. And they had all their parishioners go through the Lincoln, charged them money for it, and at the end of the day, they called John and said he could come and get his Lincoln. John went to the church on the parking lot and he went to get in the car, and this one old man with long white whiskers came up to John. He said, "Was you President Truman's chauffeur?" I thought that was cute.

JOHNSON: Well, mentioning church, since you said you were Methodist, did you happen to belong to or attend the Foundry Methodist Church in Washington, D.C.? Do you know about the Foundry Methodist Church? Do you know about that one in Washington, D.C.?

STEELMAN: I think I do.

JOHNSON: Well, Hillary Clinton's a member there and

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President Truman went there once and the pastor made a big show of it, and so he wrote in his diary that he'd never go back. He wasn't a showman and he didn't want to be the center of a circus or a show when he went to church.

Did you ever go out with him on one of his morning strolls?

STEELMAN: No.

JOHNSON: You never went out there to walk with him.

STEELMAN: I don't think I ever did.

JOHNSON: Okay, we have talked about the Council of Economic Advisors, but there is a question involving Keyserling again; Leon Keyserling. This eight months that it took for President Truman to appoint him as chairman. After Edwin Nourse resigned, Keyserling expected to be appointed right away and he was told that Truman planned to do that.* Do you remember Truman saying that he planned to appoint Keyserling as Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors?

STEELMAN: No, I don't really. I don't remember.

*See Heller, The Truman White House, pp. 194-195.

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JOHNSON: You apparently had a list of economists. Did you contact a number of economists to see if they would want to serve on the Council of Economic Advisors?

STEELMAN: Yes, I think I did, yes. Didn't Nourse resign, or did we fire him. I think he resigned.

JOHNSON: Well, he resigned.. Did you have anything to do with the eight-month delay in getting Keyserling appointed? Did you ever advise Truman not to appoint Keyserling as chairman?

STEELMAN: I don't know. I didn't have a very good impression of Keyserling. I've forgotten why, but he and I disagreed on something, I've forgotten what. So, I wasn't interested in him becoming chairman.

JOHNSON: Did you pass on that opinion or information to the President, your attitude toward Keyserling?

STEELMAN: I'm sure I did, yes.

JOHNSON: Did I ever ask you if Clark Clifford ever came over to visit you in your office? Did Clark Clifford ever come over to see you in your office?

STEELMAN: No. I don't think so, no.

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JOHNSON: Did you ever go over to visit him in his office?

STEELMAN: No.

JOHNSON: Well, Keyserling said that he felt you were an honest man and all that, but he did use the term "aggrandizing tendencies." Did Keyserling think that you were trying to build an empire in the White House? Did he ever give the impression that he thought you were trying to expand your authority in the White House?

STEELMAN: I don't recall anything like that.

JOHNSON: How about Truman's civil rights program? Did he ever visit with you, or talk to you about his plans for a civil rights program?

STEELMAN: Yes, I'm sure we did discuss it.

JOHNSON: He was for a Federal law against lynching, against poll taxes, and equal employment opportunity; these were the main features. If he talked to you about these civil rights program, what would you have advised him to do? What was your position on Truman's civil rights program?

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STEELMAN: I just don't recall. I don't remember.

JOHNSON: Were you for or against?

STEELMAN: I don't know, I just don't remember for sure.

JOHNSON: Well, you know, it became an issue at the 1948 convention, Democrat convention, and Strom Thurmond walked out with the Southern Democrats.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Did you think that he was wrong in doing that? Do you remember that convention at all when the Dixiecrats walked out?

STEELMAN: No I don't. I don't remember that.

JOHNSON: Did you ever get much involved with the Truman civil rights program, desegregation of the Armed Forces, for instance?

STEELMAN: Not much, no.

JOHNSON: I asked you yesterday if the corporations and big business had not cooperated in preventing a postwar depression, were you ready to suggest that a WPA or CCC should be resurrected? Were you ready to try the New Deal type programs again after World War II? Was there

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any thought given to that?

STEELMAN: I don't think so, because I remember calling in these businessmen and telling them, "Go back home and produce goods so fast that it'll be running out of our ears. And I'll take price controls off as soon as I can, but in the meantime you produce goods so fast that you won't need any price controls. Competition will take care of it."

JOHNSON: But you never mentioned WPA or CCC or PWA programs to them?

STEELMAN: I don't think so, no.

JOHNSON: You didn't think you were going to have to reinstitute those New Deal programs after World War II?

STEELMAN: No. I didn't think so.

JOHNSON: You didn't think you would need those.

STEELMAN: I just called these businessmen in and had an understanding they'd go back home and produce goods so fast it would be running out of our ears, and they came back and said, "You know, the Federal Reserve won't loosen up on money." They said, "It's going to cost us three billion dollars to transfer from war production

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to peacetime production, and so I remember I asked him three times to...

JOHNSON: Yes, I remember, Marriner Eccles.

Well, you realized probably in 1946, 1945-46, that the American people had saved up a lot of money and they were ready to spend. They had money to spend.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Did they have money to spend in the 1930s? Is that the big difference?

STEELMAN: Yes. I don't think so.

JOHNSON: They didn't have money to spend. Is that the big problem in the 1930s?

STEELMAN: That's it. Yes, they didn't have it.

JOHNSON: But during the war they were able to save up quite a bit of money and hadn't been able to buy civilian goods and that made the big difference. Is that the way you saw it?

STEELMAN: It sure did, yes.

JOHNSON: Because there was this savings, this money in the bank, so to speak.

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STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: And the banking system was sound.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: It wasn't sound in the early 1930s was it?

STEELMAN: No.

JOHNSON: But you said you never lost any money in a bank.

STEELMAN: No, I never did.

JOHNSON: Well, you were smart.

Well, the Employment Act of 1946, you know, said the Government would get involved if unemployment reached unacceptable levels. Was there a level at which you thought unemployment would be unacceptable? Was there a percentage of unemployment where it would be unacceptable, where the Federal Government would feel it would have to intervene in some way? Did you ever talk about what percentage of unemployment would not be acceptable without Federal intervention?

STEELMAN: I don't recall.

JOHNSON: Well, the unemployment rate reached its height in

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1949, about 6 percent. Remember that recession?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: There was a recession. Do you remember being bothered or worried about that recession in 1949?

STEELMAN: Yes, I'm sure I was.

JOHNSON: But was the Council of Economic Advisors, were they the ones that were supposed to come up with answers?

STEELMAN: That's right, they were.

JOHNSON: So you were not necessarily consulted about economic problems?

STEELMAN: Not necessarily because they were...

JOHNSON: You had a lot of other duties here that were like stockpiling, and equipment on stand-by I guess, all the National Security Resources Board activities, and these various agencies.

In a typical day would you be visited by the heads of agencies, or he called on the phone? Is that where you…

STEELMAN: Yes. That's right.

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JOHNSON: You spent a lot of your time on the telephone during the day?

STEELMAN: Oh, yes.

JOHNSON: Perhaps with the head of FHA, Federal Housing Administration. Was that under your wing?

STEELMAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: The RFC.

STEELMAN: These all called me instead of the President.

JOHNSON: They were instructed to do that, right?

STEELMAN: That's right, yes.

JOHNSON: To call you instead of Matt Connelly?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Was that the orders?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Okay, they were not to try to get to the President until they'd seen you.

STEELMAN: That's right.

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JOHNSON: That's the agency people.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: But there were people like Clark Clifford and Charlie Murphy who would probably go directly to Matt Connelly, wouldn't they, for appointments with the President?

STEELMAN: Well, some people would, yes.

JOHNSON: They were over there and the West Wing. Bill Hassett, remember Bill Hassett?

STEELMAN: Oh yes.

JOHNSON: What did you think of Bill Hassett?

STEELMAN: Oh, I liked him. I liked Bill.

JOHNSON: He's the one that wrote a lot of the replies for the President, a lot of the letters?

STEELMAN: Yes, that's right, yes.

JOHNSON: He was very good with language.

STEELMAN: He answered a lot of the President's letters, and I think I had thirteen girls writing letters for me to

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sign. I'd say, "Dear Mr. So and So, The President has asked me to thank you for your letter, for your suggestions," and so forth.

JOHNSON: S o you did some of the same work that Bill Hassett did?

STEELMAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: You did?

STEELMAN: I signed 3,000 letters in a day.

JOHNSON: As many as 3,000 in one day?

STEELMAN: Yes, that's right.

JOHNSON: Probably should be in the Guinness Book of World Records.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: You mentioned a division of labor with President Truman. At the end of a staff meeting or a Cabinet meeting, would you go to the President and say, "I've got these issues to talk to you about?"

STEELMAN: Well, when we'd have a staff meeting, and the staff meeting was over, and the staff would leave, I'd

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remain to talk to Truman about what problem he was going to handle and what problem I was going to handle.

JOHNSON: He'd give you maybe three for every one you gave him?

STEELMAN: That's right. Yes, I'd say, "Mr. President, I think you better handle this," and he'd say, "Okay, I got three I'll trade you." That's about the way it went.

JOHNSON: And I suppose if it was something crucial he'd deal with it. If it wasn't so crucial then he'd ask you to deal with it.

STEELMAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: And then you could sign the letters. Did any of your letters have to go through the President?

STEELMAN: I don't think so.

JOHNSON: They'd go directly out of the White House.

STEELMAN: Yes. I signed a lot of letters.

JOHNSON: I meant to ask you yesterday about these Cabinet committees. There was apparently an experiment, I think it was in 1950 in which the President, I think

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with your assistance, tried something new, called Cabinet committees. Do you remember anything at all about that attempt to set up so-called Cabinet committees?

STEELMAN: No, I don't remember that.

JOHNSON: Okay, here's the way it went. In July 1950 Truman sent you a memorandum in which he said, and I'm quoting, "We have tried Cabinet committees with small success. The NSRB, the NSC and two Cabinet meetings a week, seem to have solved most of the difficulties. Those difficulties are also exceedingly fewer than they were when we had all the super agencies piled on top of the Government. Between you, Mr. Harriman and Stuart Symington, we ought to be able to accomplish the purposes which we originally set out to accomplish in the organization of the Office of the President. Sometime or other I want to sit down with you and outline the differences between the present setup and the one in operation in 1939, and then really set out what happened when the super agencies were imposed on the Presidential office."

These super agencies; was he talking about wartime agencies?

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STEELMAN: I guess.

JOHNSON: You don't remember sitting down with the President to talk to him about the reorganizing of the Office of the President?

STEELMAN: I vaguely remember our discussing it, but I've forgotten the details.

JOHNSON: How about your relationship with Cyrus Ching, who was the director of the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service? Did you ever have much to do with Cyrus Ching?

STEELMAN: Well, yes.

JOHNSON: Would he consult with you?

STEELMAN: He had this job that I used to have. I used to be director of the U.S. Conciliation Service, and here comes along Cyrus Ching and so we had a lot of discussions.

JOHNSON: Did you give him advice on some of the issues, the labor-management problems?

STEELMAN: That's right.

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JOHNSON: You did?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: What did you think of him?

STEELMAN: I liked him.

JOHNSON: You thought he did a good job?

STEELMAN: Yes, he did good.

JOHNSON: The Mediation and Conciliation Service, was that set up as a separate agency after the Taft-Hartley Law was passed?

STEELMAN: Yes. When I was there people used to say that the U.S. Conciliation Service ought to be an independent agency; it ought not to be in the Labor Department. I remember one time getting the U.S. Chamber of Commerce to help me. I said, "Leave us in the Department; businessmen don't care where it is, but by it being in the Labor Department we're trying to get the unions to do something. We can say it's your own department that recommends this," you know.

JOHNSON: Yes.

STEELMAN: But later on they did make it an independent

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agency.

JOHNSON: Was that after the Taft-Hartley law was passed?

STEELMAN: I think so.

JOHNSON: Did they combine that with the Railway Labor Board? Did they combine those two?

STEELMAN: I don't think so.

JOHNSON: You had one board just to deal with railroad issues?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: And then the other one for all others. It says Mediation and Conciliation Service.

STEELMAN: Yes.

E. STEELMAN: Mr. Johnson, has John told you at all how he got President Truman and President Hoover together?

JOHNSON: I wonder if we do have that on tape.

E. STEELMAN: That's a wonderful story.

JOHNSON: You're talking about President Hoover and President Truman. Do you want to recall your

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involvement in getting President Truman and President Hoover together?

STEELMAN: President Hoover had a suite in the Waldorf, in the Waldorf Towers, and I used to have meetings in the Waldorf. So I remember visiting with Mr. Hoover. So, one time he came to Washington and I took him in and introduced him to see Truman. And they liked each other. They got along fine. So I'll never forget it.

JOHNSON: Well, are you the one that made the arrangements for the two of them to meet?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Truman did want to meet Hoover, didn't he? Did Truman think that President Roosevelt had mistreated Herbert Hoover?

STEELMAN: I think maybe he did, but Truman liked him. They got along.

JOHNSON: Do you remember your first conversation with Truman about President Hoover and what his reaction was?

STEELMAN: I remember telling Truman that Mr. Hoover was an old friend of mine; I'd known him for years. So Truman

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said, "He's a good man." He said, "He's been misquoted often," and Truman liked him.

E. STEELMAN: Did you tell Mr. Johnson about this panel you ran in New York and had all these businessmen? You had a meeting once a month. And this friend of yours out on the West Coast, wasn't it, named [H. Dwayne] Kreager; these men would fly in from all the different places in the United States and come to your meeting.

STEELMAN: Yes, we called it the Economic Panel, and...

E. STEELMAN: Yes, and you said it was sort of a secret panel or something.

STEELMAN: Yes, we would meet, I think we just met once a year. We'd meet at the Waldorf and it never was mentioned in the press. We kept it secret for years and years. We've had Government officials come in and tell us stuff there that was contrary to what they announced in Washington yesterday, because they knew they could talk safely at our Economic Panel.

JOHNSON: This was while you were in the White House?

STEELMAN: No, this was after I left the White House.

JOHNSON: After you left the White House. During the

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Eisenhower Administration.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Harry Vaughan, of course, was a very controversial figure at the White House, Harry Vaughan, General Vaughan.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Military Aide to President Truman, a friend from Battery D days, in World War I.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: There were people such as Drew Pearson who said he should fire him.

STEELMAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: And he had a way of saying things to the press that didn't help President Truman.

STEELMAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: Did you ever talk to President Truman about Harry Vaughan and his public relations problems?

STEELMAN: Oh, I'm sure I did, I don't recall any specific dates, but I'm sure I did, because Vaughan was a

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trouble-maker.

JOHNSON: Did you visit with Vaughan very much? Did you see him very much when you were in the White House?

STEELMAN: Not too often. I saw him at staff meetings.

JOHNSON: Did he ever come over to your office to visit with you?

STEELMAN: I don't recall.

JOHNSON: Did you ever feel that you had the obligation or the right to advise Truman on whom he should fire or hire or did you ever dare say anything to him about Harry Vaughan?

STEELMAN: I don't recall.

JOHNSON: He was kind of sensitive wasn't he about Harry Vaughan?

STEELMAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: And when the people criticized Harry Vaughan he usually would say they were actually trying to get at him, at the President.

STEELMAN: At the President, yes.

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JOHNSON: Is that right.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Do you remember Milton Kayle at all? He was a speech writer from 1950 on. He mentions being down in Key West and he was conversing with Harry Truman, and Milton Kayle said to the President that people were confused about Harry Vaughan and what he said and did. The President replied that what they were trying to do is get back at him. They were trying to get at the President through Harry Vaughan.

STEELMAN: Through Harry, yes.

JOHNSON: So he was not ready to criticize his old friend and partner I guess.

Besides playing poker there at Key West, do you remember any conversations about world issues, or major issues. Did those conversations come up at all when you were at Key West?

STEELMAN: Oh, yes. Yes, very often.

JOHNSON: Did he ever talk to you about world affairs, or did he just talk to you about domestic affairs, things here at home.

[254]

STEELMAN: No, he talked to me about everything.

JOHNSON: About everything.

STEELMAN: All kinds of things.

JOHNSON: And...

STEELMAN: I think I told you we were flying back to Washington from Key West, and my title was The Assistant to the President, and I told the President that this was going to be embarrassing, that the press will shorten that and the first thing you know, the press will be calling me the Assistant President. "Well," Truman said, "That's all right, that's what you are." He said, "That's no criticism."

JOHNSON: Did he say that?

STEELMAN: Yes. He said that, "You are Assistant President."

JOHNSON: Well that sounds a little bit like Jimmy Byrnes. you know, during World War II some people referred to him as Assistant President.

STEELMAN: Yes.

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JOHNSON: How about Bernard Baruch? Do you remember Bernard Baruch?

STEELMAN: Vaguely.

JOHNSON: He used to sit out on a park bench, I guess, dispensing wisdom, or what ever.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Joe McCarthy. What did you think of Joe McCarthy?

STEELMAN: He was a rattlebrain.

E. STEELMAN: Wasn't he ready to start in on the White House?

JOHNSON: I think you have a story, don't you, that McCarthy was going to investigate the people in the White House and probably smear them, and you talked to J. Edgar Hoover about McCarthy and his investigation of the White House people?

STEELMAN: I'm sure I did, yes. Edgar and I were close friends.

JOHNSON: Did you tell Edgar Hoover that you didn't want your name mentioned by Joe McCarthy.

[256]

STEELMAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: And he didn't mention it.

STEELMAN: He said, "I'll see to that." So, I said, "I don't want him to ever mention me."

JOHNSON: And he didn't.

STEELMAN: Yes. I think I told you how Edgar and I became friends. I was working in the wheat fields out in Kansas and we had a vacancy, a guy had fainted and fell off of the trailer, so we poured cold water on him and he came to, and we said, "Get the hell out of here, we don't want any weaklings around." And up came a fellow poorly dressed, poorly shaven, he looked like a bum of the first order. And he came up and asked for a job. And we said, "Yes, we've got a vacancy," and he looked at me and he said -- they said, "Sign the book here," and he looked at me and he said, "Kid, I can't write, will you sign for me?" And something told me he was fibbing. I think it was his eyes.

So he worked with us quite a while there and one night he said, "Where do you sleep at night?" And I said, "Up yonder behind the haystack so when the wind comes up it's not so cold." I said, "There's a bunch

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of rattlesnakes crawling around there. I'm always afraid I'll roll on one and he'll bite me, but they never have."

So he said, "I want to go up and talk to you." So he and I would lay on the ground looking up at a bright moonlight and he said, "You've been suspicious of me ever since I came here." I said, "Well, in a way," I said, "something told me you were fibbing when you said you couldn't write."

He laughed, he said, "Well, I'm with the FBI, and," he said, "my job is to find itinerant worker criminals." He said, "So I work up and down from Washington State to Texas and back all the time." And he said, "The reason I stayed here this long," he said, "your chuck wagon manager looks just like a criminal I've been looking for, for three years." He said, "I've got his picture and I'll show it to you in the morning, looks just like him, but," he said, "he isn't my man, so," he said, "I've got to leave you. [The story of Dr. Steelman meeting the FBI agent is repeated...to which he added:] So he left and he said, "I'm going back to the headquarters in Denver," and he had a feather pillow and he gave it to me. I'll never forget it, because if there's anything you need out sleeping on the ground [it's a pillow]. I never found

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an even spot anywhere in Kansas, so that pillow came in handy.

JOHNSON: I'll bet. Did you ever go out on a social occasion with J. Edgar Hoover?

STEELMAN: I don't remember.

JOHNSON: Did you ever go to a horse race? He liked horse races. Did you ever go to a horse race?

STEELMAN: Not with him. He had a table over at Harvey's Restaurant and I've gone over there to eat with him a lot of times.

JOHNSON: Harvey's Restaurant, in Washington?

STEELMAN: Yes.

E. STEELMAN: It's next to the Mayflower.

JOHNSON: So that's where he usually ate?

STEELMAN: Yes, Edgar had a table there, so I've eaten there with him.

JOHNSON: Did he ever talk to you about hunting for Communists in the Government? Did he ever talk to you about the Communist issue?

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STEELMAN: Yes. Yes, we did sometimes.

JOHNSON: What did he think of Joe McCarthy? Did he ever express an opinion to you about Joe McCarthy?

STEELMAN: Oh, I'm sure he did; I just don't remember specifically.

JOHNSON: I was just wondering if he thought he was an extremist.

STEELMAN: Hell, I'm sure he did, yes.

E. STEELMAN: Would it be necessary for John to tell you how he met President Hoover?

JOHNSON: How did you meet President Hoover?

E. STEELMAN: When he was in college. You wrote him a letter and he wrote a letter to the Department of Commerce. You had to do a report in high school or college or something. And President Hoover answered you.

STEELMAN: Oh yes. When I was in college I needed some information from the Department of Commerce in Washington. I didn't know who the Secretary of Commerce was, so I just wrote a letter to "The

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Secretary of Commerce, Washington, D.C." and Mr. Hoover was Secretary of Commerce at the time. To show you how little the Government was in those days, he personally answered it and sent me all the information I needed. So, we became friends ever afterward. Yes sir.

JOHNSON: Well, let's see, in 1934 when you came back to the Government, did President Hoover just stay in New York all the time, or did he ever come back to Washington? Did you ever see him in Washington, D.C.?

STEELMAN: Yes, he came to Washington occasionally. In fact, I got him and Truman together.

JOHNSON: Well, in 1945.

STEELMAN: Somewhere along there.

JOHNSON: Do you remember Eben Ayers? Eben Ayers, who was Assistant to Charlie Ross, the Press Secretary?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: He kept a diary. I think he was the only one in the White House that kept a diary. Do you know of anybody else that might have kept a diary in the White House?

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STEELMAN: No, I don't. I don't.

JOHNSON: Well, it's been published as a book, a good part of it, not all of it, and there are some rather interesting entries in there. For instance, in December 14, 1945, this wouldn't have been long after you came to the White House in October, you said apparently at a staff meeting that it looked like labor legislation was doomed at least before the Christmas recess. And the President agreed that labor legislation was sunk for the time being.

On the prisoner of war issue, the diary says you said there was demand for labor of POWs in the South and that there was difficulty in getting any labor in the South. Do you remember the problem of getting labor for industries here in the South in late 1945, right after World War II? Do you remember anything about that or the prisoners of war that I guess were being kept in southern camps, and apparently the South wanted to hang on to these prisoners of war to use them for labor. Do you have any recollection of that at all?

Robert Ferrell, ed., Truman in the White House: The Diary of Eben A. Ayers (Columbia: University of Missouri Press, 1991).

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STEELMAN: Oh, vaguely.

JOHNSON: Well, they had to, of course, send them back to Germany within a certain amount of time.

Here's a comment by Eben Ayers; this is December 21. You were in a group with the President having dinner apparently at Rosenman's apartment. Sam Rosenman must have had an apartment at the Wardman Park Hotel. Do you remember Sam Rosenman?

STEELMAN: Yes. Yes.

JOHNSON: And Ayers says John Steelman, "did not know poker too well, and the President gave him advice from time to time. However, Steelman had 'beginners luck' and wound up better than $60 ahead. It ended up with Clifford, Truman and George Allen ahead too, but Ayers, Ross, Graham and Vaughan were all losers." So you started playing poker kind of early there, didn't you?

STEELMAN: Yes. Truman played it all the time, and I only played it occasionally.

JOHNSON: Well, where did you learn poker? Where did you learn it? Did you know how to play poker before you went to the White House?

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E. STEELMAN: I'll bet he didn't.

STEELMAN: I don't think I did.

JOHNSON: You mean President Truman may have taught you how to play poker?

STEELMAN: I think he did. Yes.

JOHNSON: Did you try to teach him how to play golf?

STEELMAN: I don't think so.

JOHNSON: It never took, if you did.

STEELMAN: I don't think so, no.

JOHNSON: Did you ever do any fishing off the Williamsburg? Or did anybody do any fishing off of that ship, the Williamsburg?

STEELMAN: Yes, sometimes we did.

JOHNSON: Sometimes there was some fishing, and they'd throw a line out?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: And sometimes there was a little swimming too, wasn't there. Didn't they do some swimming off...

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STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Did you swim?

STEELMAN: Sometimes.

JOHNSON: Off the yacht, the Williamsburg?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Okay. I think we'll get up to 1951. You know the Korean War was underway and the steel workers had not had a raise since sometime in 1950. And so there was talk about a strike, you know, against the steel industry.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: U.S. Steel. And you were brought into that problem, I believe, of the steel strike. It got to the point in early 1952 that they simply couldn't get it settled. And so the steel workers went out on strike and then President Truman ordered the seizure of the steel mills.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: That went to the Supreme Court. Charles Sawyer in

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the meantime, you know, took over the steel mills for the Government. Do you remember whatever advice you might have given the President? Did you get involved in that issue, the steel strike of 1952?

STEELMAN: I'm sure I did. I don't recall any details.

JOHNSON: Of course, President Truman said that if they allowed the steel mills to stay idle then they would hurt the war effort in Korea.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: So he said that he had emergency Presidential powers, to prevent that.

STEELMAN: He could seize the steel mills and have them working for the Government, you know.

JOHNSON: Yes, and so he did it.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: But that was taken to court, went to the Supreme Court. And they ruled against the seizure; they said it

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was unconstitutional, that he had exceeded his power as President.

STEELMAN: Oh yes. I didn't recall that.

JOHNSON: Do you remember whether you were for or against the Government seizure of the steel mills?

STEELMAN: I think I was for it. I think I thought it was necessary.

JOHNSON: In other words, the Government could seize the railroads and even the mines, but they were not necessarily authorized to seize the steel mills. Well, they did settle the strike after I think it was almost seven weeks. So it did make a dent in the production of some war materials.

At this time perhaps you were chairman of the Office of Defense Management. You know, this is when Charlie Wilson, Electric Charlie, resigned because the Wage Stabilization Board was going to give a pay raise without an increase in the price of steel, something like 18 cents. And he thought that was not right, so he resigned and then you were asked to take his place. Do you remember taking Charlie Wilson's place in the Office of Defense Management during the Korean War?

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STEELMAN: Oh, yes. Yes. Truman, anytime there was a vacancy in a top job like that, Truman would appoint me to keep the heat off of him until we could find somebody else. So I had all kinds of jobs.

JOHNSON: Did that really change your work load very much? Did that put a lot of pressure on you?

STEELMAN: Yes it did, a lot of it.

JOHNSON: And how did you handle that?

STEELMAN: I was under pressure all the time anyway. We were used to it.

JOHNSON: Would you have people in your office that you could assign to certain kinds of jobs?

STEELMAN: Yes, I did. I remember David Stowe and...

JOHNSON: David Stowe would be one.

STEELMAN: And H.D. Kreager, one of my assistants.

JOHNSON: This Kreager you mentioned was very important to you.

STEELMAN: Yes.

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JOHNSON: Any others that were very important to you.

STEELMAN: Those are the two I remember best. I had others, but I've forgotten their names even.

E. STEELMAN: What was Dawson's, Donald Dawson's, job. Was he…

STEELMAN: He was one of our Administrative Assistants.

JOHNSON: Personnel. He was the one in charge of personnel.

E. STEELMAN: Oh, well, I've heard John mention him a lot.

JOHNSON: Did you have many dealings with Donald Dawson?

STEELMAN: Oh, quite a few, yes.

JOHNSON: His job was to handle the hiring of personnel wasn't it primarily?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Did he consult with you oftentimes on who to hire.? Did he have questions that he wanted to ask you about hiring certain individuals?

STEELMAN: Well, sometimes, yes. He and I kept in touch.

JOHNSON: Were you acquainted with the people that were

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being considered for hiring? What was the reason for him to talk to you about hiring personnel for the White House?

STEELMAN: Well, I had had dealings with almost everybody in the United States, so he figured I'd know the person involved, and I usually would.

JOHNSON: You usually did. So you would have an opinion or advice.

STEELMAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: Can you think of any time that you felt that the person that you had recommended turned out not to be very good?

STEELMAN: No, I don't recall any instance.

JOHNSON: You don't recall anybody being hired who was really a failure?

STEELMAN: I don't recall any.

JOHNSON: Well, you know, there are people in private industry who think people in Government as not very hard-working. What was your experience?

STEELMAN: Oh, Lord, I worked around the clock.

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JOHNSON: How about the other people around you in Government?

STEELMAN: Well, they didn't work as hard as I did.

JOHNSON: Do you think they worked as hard as people in private industry?

STEELMAN: Probably about the same.

JOHNSON: In other words, what about the efficiency of the White House? Did you feel that it was as efficient as it could be or that there was more that could have been done to make it more efficient?

STEELMAN: I don't recall anything about that.

JOHNSON: Well, you said that when you came in, there were 350 people working in the Office of War Mobilization and Reconversion and you got that staff reduced down to 35.

STEELMAN: Thirty-five, yes.

JOHNSON: Did you feel that the White House staff was at a minimum, that they couldn't cut any more than they already had?

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STEELMAN: I think I did, yes.

JOHNSON: In other words, you did not feel it was overstaffed?

STEELMAN: No.

JOHNSON: Was there anybody over on the West Wing of the White House that you :felt was an awfully hard worker? Does anybody stand out as hard workers in your recollections especially?

STEELMAN: No, I don't recall anybody.

JOHNSON: How about President Truman himself? How would he compare? Well, maybe compare him with Eisenhower. I suppose you could compare Truman with Eisenhower in terms of how hard they worked.

STEELMAN: Yes. Truman was a hard worker and Eisenhower, on the other hand, said, "Don't ever tell me about a problem until you can tell me the answer." So, he wanted to just sit and do nothing and just say yes or no.

So Eisenhower wanted me to remain as Assistant to the President and I told him I couldn't afford it, and so then he appointed Sherman Adams, and he asked me to

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teach Sherman how to handle the job. I did, and I told Sherman, "Play it down, down, down." I said, "When you're next to the President everybody exaggerates everything you do and say, so play it down." Well, Adams didn't listen and he finally got run out of town, you know; he made everybody mad.

JOHNSON: Yes. What seemed to be the attitude of the Eisenhower people? What was their attitude toward the Truman people?

STEELMAN: Well, I don't think they liked them. I remember Eisenhower wanted me to remain with him and I told him I couldn't afford it, and he said, "You owe me," and I said, "Owe you what?" He said, "For the last seven years, every time I got back to the United States you'd cook up some reason why I had to go back to Europe." He said, "I don't know who my Cabinet people are, I don't know my staff, I don't know anything; you've got to help me."

JOHNSON: Well, do you remember the episode in 1952 when Eisenhower took out a favorable reference to General Marshall? You know, in one of the campaign speeches in Wisconsin, General Eisenhower was talked into taking out a favorable reference to General Marshall because

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they were in Joe McCarthy country. This made President Truman very angry. Do you remember Truman being angry with Eisenhower during that 1952 campaign?

STEELMAN: Vaguely, but at the moment I can't recall the details.

JOHNSON: Well, you were busy in the White House I suppose. In fact, you didn't go out in 1948 either did you?

STEELMAN: No.

JOHNSON: So you never were out on any of those campaign trips.

STEELMAN: No.

JOHNSON: Well, in 1952 he went out on the campaign trail also, but it wasn't quite as long. So, did you feel that you were kind of in charge of the White House there in 1952 as well?

STEELMAN: I think I did, yes.

JOHNSON: And he was campaigning for Adlai Stevenson, you know. Trying to help him get elected.

STEELMAN: Yes.

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JOHNSON: Did you meet Adlai Stevenson?

STEELMAN: I'm sure I did. I don't recall specifically, but I know I did.

JOHNSON: Do you think anybody could have beaten General Eisenhower in 1952 in that campaign?

STEELMAN: I doubt it. I doubt it.

JOHNSON: Well, did the American people know that President Eisenhower didn't really want to work that hard at being President?

STEELMAN: I doubt if the people knew it, but he wouldn't work at all. He said, "Don't ever tell me about a problem until you tell me what the answer is."

JOHNSON: How did that differ with President Truman?

STEELMAN: Well, he wanted to know what the problems were and what was going on, but Eisenhower didn't. He didn't want to hear about them.

JOHNSON: Eisenhower wanted memos kept to, what length, minimum, one or two paragraphs?

STEELMAN: That's right. He didn't want to be bothered.

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JOHNSON: Even if it was a complex problem, he wanted a paragraph or two.

STEELMAN: That's right, he didn't want to be bothered.

JOHNSON: Simplified.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: When Truman had a complicated problem, how did he deal with it? How did that differ from Truman?

STEELMAN: Well, Truman wanted to know everything about everything. He'd work hard.

JOHNSON: In other words he would take the time to sit down and discuss something in detail?

STEELMAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: Truman would.

STEELMAN: Truman would, yes.

JOHNSON: And if he didn't have time during the day would he sometimes do this in the evening, that is President Truman?

STEELMAN: Oh, yes.

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JOHNSON: Did you meet with him sometimes in the evening, say after dinner hour, after seven in the evening or so?

STEELMAN: Oh, yes, that's right.

JOHNSON: You would meet with him.

STEELMAN: I have.

JOHNSON: Over in his study, in the White House?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Or over at your office?

STEELMAN: Over in his study.

JOHNSON: In his study, not the Oval Office.

STEELMAN: No, sir.

JOHNSON: You mean in the living quarters, his study in the living quarters, or in the Oval Office?

STEELMAN: Mostly in the Oval Office. I have talked to him in the other.

JOHNSON: Oh, in his study as well.

STEELMAN: Yes.

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JOHNSON: Is that on the second floor of the White House?

STEELMAN: Yes. I think so.

JOHNSON: Did you ever have any social occasions, socializing, with the Trumans in their living quarters? Were there ever any parties or any occasions...

STEELMAN: Receptions, and so forth. Yes, I'm sure they would have a reception for some important person.

I don't know whether I told you this. Every time I see the White House on the TV screen or something, it reminds me of something about how it came to be the White House. Did I tell you that?

JOHNSON: No.

STEELMAN: One time Churchill was visiting us in Washington, and we were out in the Rose Garden. We'd had a swearing-in. I think we had a swearing-in of a Department of Justice person or a Justice of the Supreme Court. So we were standing out in the Rose Garden and we started walking toward the White House and I saw a grin come over Truman's face. I knew he was about to come out with something. So, Truman said, "Mr. Prime Minister, look at that house, that white,

[278]

isn't that a beautiful white?" And Churchill said, "Yes, yes, Mr. President." Truman said, "You know why it's white don't you?" And Churchill said, "No, I don't know any story about that." "Well," Truman said, "the house was built out of brownstone," and he said, "During the war of 1812 you damn Britishers came over here and burned us out and smudged it up, and nastied up the house so that we had to paint it white to cover up the dirt that you..." Truman said, "Don't you ever try that again." And Churchill said, "I don't think we have anything like that in mind."

JOHNSON: That's a good one. They sure did burn it all right. In fact, I think in the Truman Library there may be a piece of that charred wood.

STEELMAN: Is that right?

JOHNSON: And broken beams under the White House piano. Did you ever hear Truman play the piano?

STEELMAN: Oh yes. Yes, he could play it.

JOHNSON: He was good at it?

STEELMAN: Yes. Yes, he could play it.

E. STEELMAN: Did you have something to do with renovating

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the White House or rebuilding it or something when the President and Mrs. Truman had to move to the Blair House? You said you had something to do with it.

STEELMAN: Yes, I've forgotten the details, but I did.

E. STEELMAN: Well, you supervised it or something you told me.

STEELMAN: Yes, I did.

JOHNSON: Did you kind of monitor, or keep tabs on the construction work there, the reconstruction?

STEELMAN: Yes, that's right. I was sort of in charge of it.

JOHNSON: Did you report to Truman on how things were going with the renovation?

STEELMAN: Oh, yes.

JOHNSON: Did you ever have any problem that you had to point out to Truman, or bring to Truman about how they were doing it?

STEELMAN: I don't recall anything specific.

JOHNSON: Remember they gutted everything inside, put the

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steel beams in, and then rebuilt the whole inside.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Some people said they should have taken the whole thing down, leveled the building down and started fresh.

STEELMAN: Started new, yes...

JOHNSON: What was your opinion? Did you feel that...

STEELMAN: No, I was for doing it over the way we did.

JOHNSON: Keeping the outer walls, the way they were.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: I'm glad they did;, I'm glad they kept those walls.

Did you ever see any of those cracked beams, did anybody ever point out to you the cracked beams under Margaret's piano, or wherever?

STEELMAN: I don't recall.

JOHNSON: Did you ever see the wooden structure. Did you ever get a chance to see the beams under the rooms there in the living quarters, see how bad it was?

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STEELMAN: I guess I did, I don't recall.

JOHNSON: But Truman asked you to kind of help him keep an eye on that reconstruction, is that what you're saying?

STEELMAN: Yes. That's right.

JOHNSON: Well, that was quite a project, five or six million dollars.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Think what it would cost now, a hundred million probably.

In one of his undated longhand notes for the record, Truman wrote, "Select secretaries for the White House staff very carefully." He goes down the list and then for Presidential Assistant he writes "he handles labor relations for the President. Must be a diplomat, able to help the Secretary of Labor, recommend board members to the President in labor disputes, make public appearances for the President and work on all sorts of problems. He must not," and he's underlined must not "be subject to Potomac fever."

STEELMAN: Yes.

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JOHNSON: "This is the most important position in the White House staff." Of course, I have asked you before about this Potomac fever thing and he's describing your position here, of course.

In another longhand undated note Truman wrote under Assistant to the President, "When I came to the White House Fred Vinson was the Assistant to the President. When I made him Secretary of the Treasury John Snyder succeeded him. When Mr. Snyder was appointed Secretary of the Treasury I appointed John Steelman Assistant to the President. Dr. Steelman is tops. He understands every part of the Government. He is a career man."

Then further on he wrote, "Dr. John Steelman is an able, efficient public servant. I did not know him until he succeeded John Snyder. No one has had a more efficient helper." That's very well deserved praise, I'm sure. Did he ever say that sort of thing to you that you recall?

STEELMAN: Oh yes. Yes.

JOHNSON: Was there any time when he felt that you had missed the boat on something, or made a mistake? Did he ever...

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STEELMAN: I don't recall.

JOHNSON: Never did.

STEELMAN: I never recall any, no.

JOHNSON: He was always complimentary when people did a good job, is that the way he operated?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Did you ever hear him cuss? Did you ever hear him swear?

STEELMAN: I don't think so. I don't recall.

JOHNSON: You mean in any of the meetings.

STEELMAN: I don't recall any.

JOHNSON: You don't recall him swearing?

STEELMAN: No.

JOHNSON: People who worked for him say he was a kind boss. What was your opinion of him as a boss?

STEELMAN: Well, he was very kind. Very appreciative of your work and so forth.

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JOHNSON: And if somebody made a mistake how would he deal with that? If somebody didn't quite do it the way he thought maybe it should have been done, how would he approach that person?

STEELMAN: Well, he would criticize in a very kindly way. He never was harsh.

JOHNSON: In other words, if there had been secret tape recordings, we would not have heard the swearing that we sometimes hear?

STEELMAN: No.

JOHNSON: Did you know Robert Allan and William V. Shannon? They were columnists who did the "Washington Merry Go Round?"

STEELMAN: Yes, I knew them.

JOHNSON: What was your opinion of these two people?

STEELMAN: What were their names again?

JOHNSON: Robert Allan and William Shannon. They wrote this column called "Washington Merry Go Round." Do you remember that?

STEELMAN: Yes. Well, they were...

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JOHNSON: What was your feelings about that column and those two columnists?

STEELMAN: Well, I didn't particularly appreciate them because a lot of times they were critical unfairly and so forth.

JOHNSON: Did they ever talk to you, interview you?

STEELMAN: Oh yes.

JOHNSON: They did interview you?

STEELMAN: Yes, and I remember Clifford would go out of a staff meeting and tip these fellows off to stuff. He built himself up with them so they thought he was a great guy, and then finally he left the White House and became a lobbyist.

JOHNSON: Do you remember any negative things they wrote about you?

STEELMAN: Not particularly.

JOHNSON: Critical things?

STEELMAN: I'm sure they did at times, but I don't recall any.

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JOHNSON: In fact, the author of the book, Political Profiles, describes you as one who "gradually became one of Truman's important domestic advisors. A hard working, aggressively jovial man, he had the trust of Truman, who liked his country boy manners. Critics, however, were offended by" -- now I believe he's quoting Allan and Shannon -- "by his 'jovial evasiveness' to questions, and crude attempts to manage news." "Columnists Robert Allan and William V. Shannon found him... red-faced, pushy, opportunistic ...a congenital glad handed...a bombastic hack." So, what's your reply to these people?

STEELMAN: Well, often they didn't stick to the facts. They wrote stuff that wasn't true.

JOHNSON: What do you think was their motive? What was their reason?

STEELMAN: I don't know. They liked to be popular, like to be quoted and talked about.

JOHNSON: Did you view them as a kind of a gossip type columnists, gossip columnists?

STEELMAN: Yes. Yes, that's what they were.

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JOHNSON: How would you compare them with Drew Pearson?

STEELMAN: Well, Drew Pearson would take after one person after another, but he'd take one person and he'd ride them to death.

JOHNSON: Do you think he was more accurate, though than...

STEELMAN: Not necessarily. I remember one time John Snyder came out of the President's office and he was almost crying, and John said, "If I had the nerve, I would commit suicide. I can't stand any more of Drew Pearson's criticism." I'll never forget that. Drew drove him crazy.

JOHNSON: Did you have a thick skin? Are you saying that John Snyder was sort of thin-skinned?

STEELMAN: Apparently, yes. Poor fellow.

JOHNSON: How about you. Do you feel that you had to have a thick skin to be in the White House?

STEELMAN: That's right, yes.

JOHNSON: Even if you weren't a partisan politician?

[288]

STEELMAN: When I used to teach, I told the students, "You let very few people in here; you keep most people, and all problems, out here so you can look at them. Don't let them in here."

JOHNSON: Out here at arms-length, you mean?

STEELMAN: That's right. That was my attitude.

JOHNSON: Were there any other newspaper people or reporters that you had any problems with in the White House?

STEELMAN: I don't recall any.

JOHNSON: Do you recall being interviewed very often by people from the press?

STEELMAN: No I wasn't. I usually didn't want to talk to them, so they didn't bother me much.

JOHNSON: Did you let it be known that you didn't want to necessarily be interviewed...

STEELMAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: ...and quoted in the newspapers.

STEELMAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: Why did you feel that way?

[289]

STEELMAN: Well, I didn't want it to interfere with my work.

JOHNSON: Did you feel that the newspapers might end up misquoting you?

STEELMAN: That's right. Clifford would tip off the press to stuff that he wasn't supposed to, just to build himself up with the press.

JOHNSON: Do you remember Truman ever talking about the newspaper publishers and the cartoonists and those who were criticizing him in the press, like Bertie McCormick, you know, of the Chicago Tribune? Did he ever talk to you about these publishers and what he felt about them?

STEELMAN: He didn't like them.

JOHNSON: Well, there's a newspaper in Washington that was also operated by the McCormick people. I think it was called the Washington Times-Herald. Do you remember that newspaper? They always had a cartoon on the front page that disparaged President Truman.

STEELMAN: Yes. I remember that.

JOHNSON: Well, you had a cartoon in your study here that

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was in the Washington Post, by Berryman. Berryman, the cartoonist. Do you remember what year that was? Maybe we can get the date on that. Is that the only cartoon that you ever appeared in?

HART: No.

JOHNSON: Was he in other cartoons?

E. STEELMAN: Oh, loads of them. We have a lot of them.

JOHNSON: Is that right.

STEELMAN: Yes.

E. STEELMAN: Robert took some of them...

JOHNSON: Are those in the papers that went to the Truman Library?

STEELMAN: I guess so.

JOHNSON: Okay.

Now, that's a favorable cartoon I believe, isn't it? I think Berryman was fairly friendly wasn't he to the White House?

STEELMAN: I think so, yes.

JOHNSON: Okay, that's John Steelman on the left and John L.

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Lewis on the right, two Johns. And John Steelman is saying, "But John, the operators say they can't meet your wage demands." And John L. Lewis says, "What's the matter with him, why can't he pay it?" That's the taxpayer, taxes. Some of these cartoonists, they kind of tried to make Truman look like he was what they now call a tax and spend liberal?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Did you ever think of him as a tax and spend liberal?

STEELMAN: No, I don't think I did.

JOHNSON: All right. This cartoon has Dr. John Steelman up there in the window, and his name on the window. Here's Truman rushing to see him with his ailing baby called "Labor Troubles." What did you think of that one?

I don't have a date on it, but I imagine this was about 1946, don't you think?

STEELMAN: Yes. I think so.

E. STEELMAN: Then here's another one of John and President Truman both running toward the railroad tracks and

[292]

there's somebody tied on the railroad tracks. "The Public" was tied on the railroad tracks and John and President Truman are running toward him. I don't know where that one is.

STEELMAN: I don't know where that one is either.

JOHNSON: Well, what did you feel. Did you feel that you helped rescue the American public and the taxpayer from the almost disasters that would be caused by major strike shutdowns?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Which of the management people did you admire most?

STEELMAN: I don't know. I was friendly with all of them.

JOHNSON: How about Charlie Wilson of General Electric?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Why did Truman seem to like him better than most of the big businessmen?

STEELMAN: We called him "Electric Charlie," and "Detroit Charlie" of General Motors.

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JOHNSON: Truman was pretty critical of big business.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Did you think he had a right to be critical of big business, in most instances anyway? Do you think Truman was more pro-labor than you were?

STEELMAN: I think maybe he was.

JOHNSON: But you had good relations with union leaders, didn't you?

STEELMAN: Oh yes.

JOHNSON: How about Eisenhower. How did his attitude, or policies toward labor unions, big labor, differ from Truman's?

STEELMAN: Well, I think Eisenhower didn't like them. And they didn't like him.

JOHNSON: What did you feel about Eisenhower as far as his relations with big business are concerned? Did you think he was a kind of a tool of big business?

STEELMAN: Yes, I had that feeling, yes.

JOHNSON: That he was a tool of big business?

[294]

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Did you know some of those people in his Cabinet? George Humphrey for instance?

STEELMAN: Yes, I remember George vaguely.

JOHNSON: And of course, Charlie Wilson of General Motors became Secretary of Defense.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: He was the one that wanted more "bang for a buck."

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Do you remember that?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Was Sherman Adams the only one you really dealt with in the Eisenhower White House?

STEELMAN: I think mainly, yes.

JOHNSON: How long were you there with the Eisenhower White House?

STEELMAN: Oh, not very long. I've forgotten exactly how long.

[295]

E. STEELMAN: I thought you told me six months.

STEELMAN: Maybe I was there that long. Maybe I was there that long, but I know I tried to train Sherman and he wouldn't listen.

JOHNSON: In other words, in May or June of 1953 you left the Eisenhower White House staff.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: And you went back into private business. So what did you do?

STEELMAN: Instead of going back to my New York office I decided to stay in Washington and had an office in the Albee Building, and I would advise people. I never would personally -- having had the job that I'd had -- I wouldn't personally contact any Government people. I wasn't that kind of a lobbyist. I was merely an advisor. I called myself an industrial consultant, and I would advise people whether I thought they were right or wrong, or who they should see in the Government, but I personally only advised, and that went on for quite a while.

JOHNSON: How long did you...

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STEELMAN: I had, I think, 25 companies and they paid me -- each one paid me I think $20,000. So I made good money.

JOHNSON: You suddenly felt rich.

STEELMAN: Yes. Made money for a while.

JOHNSON: This was in Washington, D.C.; you had an office there. Was that in the Albee Building, or was that somewhere else?

STEELMAN: In the Albee Building.

E. STEELMAN: How about Silver Springs, your Silver Spring office? When you bought the newspaper and it went into three newspapers.

STEELMAN: When I left the Government I had trouble slowing down and so I finally bought a newspaper that was losing $1,000 a month. I bought it for $4,000, and it developed a deficit of $81,000. And all at once, a big store down in town, who was it Ellen, that big department store?

E. STEELMAN: Garfinkles or one of those.

STEELMAN: They took out a full page ad in my paper, and so instead of minus $4,000 I got over on the plus side,

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and I sold it for $400,000.

JOHNSON: You did take a risk there then, didn't you?

E . STEELMAN: Yes.

STEELMAN: And I had a cattle farm out in Maryland, registered Black Angus cattle. So I sold that farm. I sold that paper, and I remember standing in my office in Silver Spring, Maryland and I said, "I'm worth two million," so I tell people I was worth two million and I have $64 of it left.

JOHNSON: When you bought the newspaper, you quit the consulting business? Was that when you quit?

STEELMAN: I think I did, yes.

JOHNSON: That's when you quit the consulting business.

E. STEELMAN: Retired.

JOHNSON: But that was a very profitable business, being a consultant?

STEELMAN: Oh, yes.

JOHNSON: But you never personally contacted...

STEELMAN: Anybody in the Government.

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JOHNSON: You'd just advise them who to see and how to get to see them.

STEELMAN: That's right. And whether they had a case or not.

JOHNSON: And then you bought the newspaper. Did you want more excitement, or why did you buy the newspaper?

STEELMAN: That's right. I couldn't slow down. Yes, sir, the newspaper really sank me; I remember minus $81,000. I thought it was going to break me for sure, and then I got over in the plus side and got all my money back and…

JOHNSON: Did you go out and sell the advertising, or did somebody else do it.

STEELMAN: No. I had somebody do it.

JOHNSON: But you had something to do with that, I suppose, didn't you?

STEELMAN: Oh yes.

JOHNSON: Did you contact these big advertisers to advertise in your paper?

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STEELMAN: I think I did sometimes.

E. STEELMAN: I don't think anybody knew he had the paper. It wasn't publicized.

STEELMAN: But I had somebody do it.

JOHNSON: Well, did you expand the news coverage too; did you make it a better newspaper?

STEELMAN: Yes. Yes, we made it better.

JOHNSON: Did you write a column? Did you write the editorials?

STEELMAN: Yes. And I sold it for $400,000.

JOHNSON: Well, that shows that you had it going in the right direction.

STEELMAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: Is there anything else now about Truman or Eisenhower that we haven't touched on. Is there anything in that list there?

Why do you think Truman did not plan to run in '48? Why do you think he didn't want to run?

STEELMAN: Well, I remember talking. He and I were flying

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from Key West and we were talking and Truman said, "You know, I just don't like being President. I want to go back to Independence, Missouri and take it easy." And so we agreed; I was going to go back to New York and make some money, and all at once it develops that Dewey is going to run.

JOHNSON: Would that be 1947?

STEELMAN: I think so. Truman said, "I'm the only one that can beat him, so I got to run. So, you've got to stay with me."

JOHNSON: Do you think Truman was discouraged by the fact that the Republicans had gotten such a big vote in 1946? You know, when the Congress because Republican. Do you feel that that was a discouragement to -- that he was discouraged about that?

STEELMAN: Yes, he was.

JOHNSON: Did he talk to you about that?

STEELMAN: Yes, I'm sure.

JOHNSON: That election.

STEELMAN: Yes.

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E. STEELMAN: Did John tell you that he told the President, "Mr. President I'm a Republican," and President Truman said, "I don't care what your politics are, I just want you to help me run the Government."

JOHNSON: They called you a career man.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Which implied that you were sort of like Civil Service.

STEELMAN: Yes. Well, Miss Perkins, Secretary of Labor, was offered the job as president of some woman's college, what is it?

E. STEELMAN: I don't know whether it was Vassar or Wellesley.

STEELMAN: Vassar. So, Roosevelt said, "I'll accept your resignation if you'll find somebody that I like to take your place." So she said, "How about this Dr. Steelman we were discussing in the Cabinet meeting the other day?" They were discussing me because I had settled a strike every night for seven nights in a row in a different state of the United States. And that was just an accident, plus no sleep. So, FDR said, "Fine,

[302]

get him." So, Miss Perkins said she wanted me to be Secretary of Labor and I said, "No, I don't want it. I'm a Republican, and I don't want any political appointment in the Government, and particularly, President Roosevelt doesn't want any Secretary of Labor. He's Secretary of everything himself. He just wants somebody to have that title."

JOHNSON: You called yourself Republican, but who did you vote for in 1936 and 1940?

STEELMAN: I don't recall.

JOHNSON: Well, don't you think you voted for Roosevelt. In 1948, did you vote in 1948?

STEELMAN: I don't remember. I don't remember whether I did or not.

JOHNSON: If you voted, you would have voted for Truman, wouldn't you?

STEELMAN: I guess. Yes.

JOHNSON: Even though you called yourself Republican. I think I saw somewhere you said you were registered as Independent.

[303]

E. STEELMAN: We are now.

STEELMAN: That's it. I later registered as an Independent.

JOHNSON: But did you think of yourself really as an Independent?

STEELMAN: I always did.

JOHNSON: More than a Republican or a Democrat?

STEELMAN: I always did.

JOHNSON: You said you were a Republican because your father was Republican.

STEELMAN: My father. I was born that way.

JOHNSON: That was a family tradition.

STEELMAN: My father came from the mountains of North Carolina. There's a section of North Carolina that never seceded from the Union during the Civil War, and my father came from that part of the mountains, a mountainous section of North Carolina, and he came over into Arkansas and homesteaded.

JOHNSON: Yes, you know that in East Tennessee, the mountains of East Tennessee and in southern Missouri,

[304]

in the Ozarks, that's Republican territory.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Because they had no stake in the slave system and they had problems with, you know, the big planters and so on.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: So that's still kind of a Republican part of Missouri, the Ozarks, Springfield area and so on. But how about your father? Did he live through the '30s, through the Depression?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Even though he's a Republican by tradition, did you ever hear him say good things about Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal?

STEELMAN: I just don't recall discussing it with him.

JOHNSON: You don't recall his reaction.

STEELMAN: I've forgotten what year my father died. I've forgotten what year he died.

E. STEELMAN: But you were never home from the time you were

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fourteen years old, you told me.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Was that right? When you left the Thornton area of Arkansas at the age of fourteen, you did not return again until, well, I guess when he was in his old age.

E. STEELMAN: He didn't return at all. He went to town and lived with a doctor and his family while he finished high school, isn't that right? And then after that you started college and you didn't return home. I don't think you lived at home at all.

STEELMAN: I'd do different jobs in the summer.

JOHNSON: You were in North Carolina at the University.

STEELMAN: Yes, and I went to Vanderbilt and I think I told you at Vanderbilt I had seven paying jobs. I made more money than the professors.

JOHNSON: Yes. You didn't get much sleep.

STEELMAN: Had no sleep. No sleep.

JOHNSON: Well, you managed to survive that all right.

E. STEELMAN: He's making up for it now, he sleeps about 18

[306]

hours out of 24.

JOHNSON: Truman was an early riser. Were you an early riser?

STEELMAN: Well, back in those day I was, of course, I was.

JOHNSON: What time did you have to get up in the morning? When you were working at the White House what time would you get up?

STEELMAN: I think early. As I recall I was on duty soon.

E. STEELMAN: But you worked most all night all the time.

STEELMAN: Yes, and a lot of times I'd work all night.

JOHNSON: And you'd still be at your office at what time in the morning?

STEELMAN: Sometimes I'd work all night.

JOHNSON: Yes, but in the morning you'd be in your office at 8:15.

STEELMAN: Oh, by 8, or 8:15.

JOHNSON: You had daily, almost daily staff conferences...

[307]

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: ...what time were those staff conferences?

STEELMAN: I don't recall now.

JOHNSON: How many people were in those staff conferences. How many would meet together?

STEELMAN: Five or six as I recall.

JOHNSON: Five or six.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: And you would attend the staff conferences in the White House in the Office of the President, and you'd attend Cabinet meetings.

STEELMAN: Yes

JOHNSON: Technically, or officially, you were in a sense almost like a boss to the Cabinet.

STEELMAN: Yes, in a way.

JOHNSON: You were to coordinate the Cabinet for the President which meant that you would kind of oversee the activities of the Cabinet people for the President.

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STEELMAN: That's right. I was above the Cabinet.

JOHNSON: Yes, you were above the Cabinet, between the Cabinet and the President.

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Did you advise the President that it would be better for him not to have someone between him and the Cabinet?

STEELMAN: Yes, I remember going to Truman and telling him, "I've only issued two orders to Cabinet members since I've been here, and in both instances I had an understanding with them first before I issued the order." So, I recommended abolishing of Office of War Mobilization and Reconversion, which we did.

JOHNSON: But then when you became The Assistant to the President, you were doing much of the same duties, is that right?

STEELMAN: Yes, that's right.

JOHNSON: But with a different title now.

STEELMAN: Yes.

[309]

JOHNSON: In fact, a lot of those wartime agencies were combined into something called the office of Temporary Controls. General [Philip] Flemming was put in charge of those.

STEELMAN: Price control business wasn't it, yes.

JOHNSON: Yes, that was part of it. Do you remember General Flemming?

STEELMAN: Yes, vaguely.

JOHNSON: You got along with him did you?

STEELMAN: Oh, yes.

JOHNSON: The ones that you seemed to have doubts about are like Clifford and perhaps Keyserling; those were two that you didn't especially get along well with, right?

STEELMAN: That's right, yes.

JOHNSON: Keyserling said that you could have been a fly in the ointment but weren't especially because you did not interfere. I think he implies in his commentary that even though you might have had the right to do so, you did not interfere with the Council of Economic Advisors. Is that correct?

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STEELMAN: I think yes.

JOHNSON: You didn't try to tell them what they ought to do.

STEELMAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: Did they try to tell you what you ought to do?

STEELMAN: No, I don't think so.

JOHNSON: So you let them sort of have access to Truman without interfering with that?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: In other words, instead of applying a rule, hard and fast to everybody, did you sort of take each case on its own merits, and decide whether this strategy would be better than a different strategy?

STEELMAN: That's right, yes.

JOHNSON: So your attitude toward rules was, what, flexible?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: Did you feel it was important that whatever rules there were, that there should be some flexibility?

STEELMAN: That's right.

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JOHNSON: So that you could deal with them person-to-person, on a personal rather than a kind of an official, or formal basis?

STEELMAN: That's right. Yes.

JOHNSON: Is that the reason, do you think, you managed to get along with people? Is it that you didn't throw the rule book at them.

STEELMAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: Or always go by the book? I mean you learned that from sociology?

STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: So that degree in sociology helped you a great deal then, you think?

STEELMAN: Oh, yes.

E. STEELMAN: He has a degree in divinity. He's a preacher too. He can preach.

JOHNSON: Did you get a masters degree in theology?

E. STEELMAN: Did you know that Robert?

[312]

JOHNSON: At Vanderbilt.

STEELMAN: Yes. My old college professor, Dr. Foster, when I told him I wanted to get a degree in sociology, and he said, "You know, if you're going to understand society, you need to understand religion." So, he said, "You ought to make yourself take a degree in it so you'll really know." So, at Vanderbilt I took a master's degree and I also took a bachelor of divinity, BD degree.

JOHNSON: I'll be.

E. STEELMAN: I'm not about to call him Reverend.

JOHNSON: No.

STEELMAN: I'm an AB, BD, MA, and Ph.D.

JOHNSON: Did you feel that he was right, that it was helpful?

STEELMAN: Yes, it was.

HART: Did you talk about his job when he worked as an investigator for the Inter-Racial Commission?

JOHNSON: Oh, yes. I was going to ask you that, since you were involved with that when you were at Alabama

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College.

HART: The Southern Inter-Racial Commission. As a secret investigator.

JOHNSON: Was that a Church sponsored group?

STEELMAN: I don't think so.

JOHNSON: Who sponsored that?

STEELMAN: Somebody in Atlanta, the Inter-Racial Commission, and they had me investigating lynchings. There was a lot of lynchings in the south and I wrote a thesis on that subject. It was about mob violence in the South.

JOHNSON: Did you make notes while these things were going on? Did they know that you were a spy?

STEELMAN: No, I don't think so.

HART: It looked like he worked for the Governor and somebody he reported to was a Judge Foster. Do you remember anything about that? There was a circumstance where you were investigating somebody who had been lynched and it looked like they though it was done by the Klan, and they blamed somebody that wasn't really the perpetrator of the crime, and that was just one

[314]

specific case that you had talked about a long time ago.

E. STEELMAN: He told me about taking a black man, who was accused of something in his car, and he made him hide in the back seat of the car when he went through certain towns. He got him out of the Sheriff's office or something; the people would have lynched him.

JOHNSON: Yes, did you take a fugitive perhaps, a black fellow who had been accused of a crime, falsely, and you put him in the back of the car and took him over to Atlanta?

STEELMAN: Yes. A little girl was murdered and they blamed this black man and the black man had nothing to do with it. The little girl's father murdered her. They didn't have any food and there was a black man and his wife lived up there on the farm; they had more than these white people. And the little girl would get hungry and she'd go get food from them, and that father said if she went up there again he'd kill her, and he did. She was found 50 yards away from where her head was first cut off, the blood. And so I remember I couldn't understand how she got there, and I got somebody in the Government and they said, "Yes, in the

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war sometimes a man would get shot, would get his head cut off, and he would go a hundred yards before he stopped.

E. STEELMAN: Like a chicken. Reflexes.

STEELMAN: And so I remember that.

JOHNSON: And then you got the black man, you got him out of town.

STEELMAN: Yes. They were about to lynch him and I got him out of town and got him over into Atlanta, and they got the Southern Inter-Racial Commission to see that he got a job and so forth.

JOHNSON: It was their intention, I suppose, to prevent lynchings?

STEELMAN: Yes. The Southern Inter-Racial Commission.

HART: It was headed up by Dr. Will Alexander.

STEELMAN: Yes, Dr. Alexander.

JOHNSON: Well, you know, Truman wanted a Federal law against lynching, to allow the Federal Government to prosecute people who were involved in lynchings, and you undoubtedly did favor that, didn't you?

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STEELMAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: But they never got it.

STEELMAN: Because lynching is murder.

JOHNSON: Yes. But by the end of Truman's administration, there was no Federal law against lynching.

We will mention this on the record here. Somehow or other, when I was at the Truman Library, we had the impression when I was at the Library that there was very little still available of the papers of Dr. Steelman, and yet there's what twenty...

HART: There are 50 boxes that I turned over.

E. STEELMAN: See, he was starting to get forgetful up there in North Carolina. So many people had asked him to write all that. You had 18 file cases didn't you down in our basement?

HART: Well, those are transfiles which were this long and they were this wide, but then the National Archives put them into boxes about the size of a liquor box and they were about 50 boxes that size.

JOHNSON: Yes, Records Center boxes, legal size long and

[317]

letter size wide.

E. STEELMAN: But they would have all been destroyed, they would have all been thrown in the trash. Then one night Robert got ready up in Virginia, and drove twelve or fourteen hours to our place in North Carolina late, all night long, in pouring rain. He had a truck and he went down in that basement and hauled all that stuff up in his truck and brought it to Virginia.

STEELMAN: Yes, he saved it.

JOHNSON: You'd stored these papers in boxes in the basement of…

HART: Of all the houses they'd lived in.

E. STEELMAN: Yes.

HART: But I had moved them as a kid from one place to the other and up in North Carolina they sold the house and the lady that was buying the house said, "Oh, she'd do something, or if she didn't want them she'd put them in the dump." I said, "No, we're going to do something else with them."

JOHNSON: I guess so.

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STEELMAN: It's a good thing we saved them.

JOHNSON: I think you were contacted back in the late '70s.

HART: I think he'd intended probably to write his memoirs or something and never got around to it, and every time he'd look at those boxes, the volume was tremendous. It'd take a battery of people to go over it and he didn't need that kind of aggravation.

JOHNSON: Did you have a plan to write your autobiography, or your memoirs? Did you have that planned at one time?

STEELMAN: I think I had thought of it.

HART: He had an outline. There's an outline in those papers. I made a number of copies of it.

JOHNSON: Well, there seems to be a good deal there for a dissertation and certainly a biography. Somebody's going to eventually get around to it. I don't know who, but I'm sure that that's going to be an important collection when they get it processed. Of course, that takes some time.

Well, we'll stop at this point, and if something would happen to come up in the next few minutes,

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perhaps we can get it on the record. Otherwise, I suppose this will be the conclusion. I certainly appreciate the time and information.

STEELMAN: Oh, we feel indebted to you for what you're doing.

JOHNSON: I'm certainly glad to do it, and the Truman Library, I'm sure, is glad to have the materials that they now have.

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